iRSC - Invent Racing Sprint Cup

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iBlaze²
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iRSC - Invent Racing Sprint Cup

Post by iBlaze² » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:24 pm

Here's the idea :idea: ...

An all-new default cars cup, courtesy of Invent Racing.

> This cup will consist of 5 races.

> The races will each be 10-laps long and held on randomly-selected default circuits.

> Each race will use a different default car. The order of use for each car will again be random.

> The races will be non-ghost BUT FAIR and grid order will be reverse cup positions.

> Points will be issued after each race, as follows:
- 1st: 12
- 2nd: 8
- 3rd: 6
- 4th: 5
- 5th: 4
- 6th: 3
- 7th: 2
- 8th: 1

> There will be a 1-point bonus for fastest lap at each race.

> Cup winner is the player with the most points after all 5 races.



iRSC 'test' !!
Date: Sun 15th Feb
Time: 17:00 GMT (18:00 CET, 19:00 FIN)
Last edited by iBlaze² on Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:11 pm, edited 6 times in total.

lux2
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Post by lux2 » Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:30 am

It sounds good.
As an F2 cup... :wink:

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Post by dede » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:17 pm

Doesn't sound very good to me, because most of those tracks aren't exactly racing tracks. Some have tricks that are known only to wankers (bounces, driving-tricks, etc).
I also don't like that points system, because 9th position would be the same as 20th position.

I'd prefer a cup like the old JJT (10 racing tracks, each default car driven twice, 6 laps/track, reverse cup points starting order, ghost), or the JJT G&D, or also a new cup with ghost off (I was thinking about organizing a Slider cup, 1 track, several laps, damage terrain & no obstacles next to the track).

Just some ideas, but I'll come to any kind of organized cup actually.

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Post by iBlaze² » Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:02 pm

lux2 wrote:It sounds good.
As an F2 cup... :wink:
I did think of this actually. But there's just not enough interest in F2 for it to work I'm afraid. :(

dede wrote:most of those tracks aren't exactly racing tracks. Some have tricks that are known only to wankers (bounces, driving-tricks, etc).
Ahhh, I didn't know this. Now I see why they aren't used very much then lol. We can keep the same format, with different tracks I guess (maybe just use tracks made by iR members even?)

dede wrote:I also don't like that points system, because 9th position would be the same as 20th position.
Just like in the real world of motor-racing then. In actual fact, it's simply a revised version of the current F1 points-system. Although, I did consider extending points down to 10th place. Again, I might yet do this. For the moment though, it's just an idea.

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Post by iBlaze² » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:15 pm

iBlaze² wrote:
lux2 wrote:It sounds good.
As an F2 cup... :wink:
I did think of this actually. But there's just not enough interest in F2 for it to work I'm afraid. :(

dede wrote:most of those tracks aren't exactly racing tracks. Some have tricks that are known only to wankers (bounces, driving-tricks, etc).
Ahhh, I didn't know this. Now I see why they aren't used very much then lol. We can keep the same format, with different tracks I guess (maybe just use tracks made by iR members even?)

dede wrote:I also don't like that points system, because 9th position would be the same as 20th position.
Just like in the real world of motor-racing then. In actual fact, it's simply a revised version of the current F1 points-system. Although, I did consider extending points down to 10th place. Again, I might yet do this. For the moment though, it's just an idea.

Forget this. I've decided that the best way of finding out what works and what doesn't is to try it and see how it goes. In theory, it may not sound so great, but in practise it could be very different.

We will stick to the initial plans. Hold an inaugural iRSC 'test'. See how well (or not) it works. Then decide how to improve it before future editions (or scrap it completely if it really is that bad!)

But in order to find out, I need people to join first.

Let us know if you are interested in this 'test cup'. We will arrange a date and time later when we have enough people signed-up to make it worthwhile (i will try to make the time and date convenient for everybody).

So please sign up now if you are interested in trying this idea out :)

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Post by dede » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:27 pm

iBlaze² wrote:So please sign up now if you are interested in trying this idea out :)
Maybe you should just pick a date, without signing up needed: faster way to organize things, and more players involved (you get random players too).

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Post by iBlaze² » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:25 pm

Ok, taking dede's advice on board...

Date: Sun 15th Feb
Time: 17:00 GMT (18:00 CET, 19:00 FIN)


This will be the 'test cup' and will be run as outlined in the first post.

Hope to see lots of people there (we won't know how good or bad it is unless people show up lol).

And I hope you will enjoy the cup :)

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Post by iBlaze² » Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:10 pm

I've been thinking about this some more. Now I am able to host, I think that I will host sunday's 'test cup' as it will work nicely as a lag test for me as well.

The other thing; as the cup is now non-ghost, I believe a random grid order will turn this cup into a pointless lottery. Therefore, I'm changing the grid order to reverse cup positions. This will basically mean that, in order to win the cup (or even take points), you will not only have to have speed, but also a good overtaking ability. This fits the idea of the cup much better than simply "fastest driver wins".

I really want this cup to be about racing, rather than about speed. After all, in the real world of motor-racing, it's not always the fastest driver who wins. I'm hoping this theory will level the playing-field a bit as well. I'm currently testing the theory of this cup with AI bots, but we shall find out on sunday how well the cup works.[/i]

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Post by iBlaze² » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:51 pm

Just a quick reminder that this cup begins in approximately 3 hours :)


EDIT: it would be an even better reminder if I had spelt it right the first time lolol

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Post by AndyLove » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:36 pm

I want to join this if I'll be online. What's the ip and or how do I sign up?
You'll Never Race Alone

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Post by iBlaze² » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:58 pm

No need to sign up. Just come along at 17:00 GMT (whatever that is in your local time). No need to connect directly from IP either. Just look for our server on the servers list and connect that way, much easier :)

See you there!

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Post by iBlaze² » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:21 pm

Thanks to everybody who came along :)

Janne won the cup and I will get full results up shortly.

As this was a 'test cup', I would greatly appreciate any feedback. Personally, I felt it worked, as a nice fun cup with some good racing (even if it was a bit crazy sometimes).

But, I'll wait for more feedback from the experts before I make any further decisions about the cup.

Thanks again.

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Post by Scud » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:32 pm

Yeah, it was fun cup! :D Some tracks didnt work that good, really crashy... But anyway, really positive experience!
~siLciR <3~

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Post by lux2 » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:53 pm

I think it could be better if raced on tracks without obstacles, because "fair" crashes cause everybody loose a lot of time and the results become quite "random".

I think ghost could be better but, as Scud said, there are many ghost cups yet.

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Post by olio » Sun Feb 15, 2009 8:15 pm

I'm too lazy to write in here too, so if you want to, check out my feedback at [+]website.

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test results

Post by Mike Nike » Mon Feb 16, 2009 3:08 pm

As enemy of the in my opinion never 100% existing fair nonghost races, espcially with cars like spinner, i took part at the test (imo a test cup is just a test and nothing "official"...whatever). Else i wouldnt have driven as "chibinho", the nick i choose to test different settings to get rid of the errors which occured since ts 2.0 came out...
It was a little pleasure to see the mess in the cup, the rough race and no care about gentlemen rules in more than enough cases to never take such a cup seriously.
While being pushed and blocked in the spinner race for example, i made an overtake by myself, which might have been fair in some eyes, but in my opinion rough enough to count as unfair (overtaking without touch seemed impossible).
It would take a lot of time, even for one race, to punish all the drivers, who drove rough^^...
Even it was not lap 1, when i got pushs offroad in Puddles, Forestry, Rockfore, some people kept on driving without waiting to let me pass.

It's actually nothing new, just wanted to help Blaze testing. Unfortunately he told me right after the cup, that the cup made fun and was good enough to keep it *shock*. Bit of surprise for me, but okay, if some people have fun in that chaos, where some people try to care about rules and some don't...it's ok..

The Slider ghost cup after the test was nice though, even dede pwned me and Janne and showed me one more time the size of my horrible lack of practice, but it was competitive.
Some series of 1-car-only-ghost-racing-cups could be really nice. (Many tracks with 4-10 laps or just a few tracks with 10-20 laps ..whatever)

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Re: test results

Post by dede » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:11 pm

Mike Nike wrote:While being pushed and blocked in the spinner race for example, i made an overtake by myself, which might have been fair in some eyes, but in my opinion rough enough to count as unfair (overtaking without touch seemed impossible).
Well, in my opinion fairplay applies differently depending by the car you are driving:

AntiSlider: it's easy to avoid big contacts, so fairplay means trying to overtake without contacts (contacts generate sliding -> a bit unfair).

Speeder: not exactly made for nonghost racing, because it requires a lot of practice. Newbies/average players tend to brake too late with this car, so that will result in pushing car in front of them. Playing fairplay with Speeder means you have to brake even before than pro players do. It can work very nicely only if all players are skilled (I had some nice battles with Tijny, for example, because we both know when to brake).

All other cars can offer "fair contacts", as long as they aren't too hard.

EasySlider: contacts are welcome, but they shouldn't be too hard. It's okay if you take inner line and hit the opponent while curving (exactly, while curving, not while he is curving and you come full speed to wreck him!). Opponent can easily correct his line without losing almost anything, and he can counter attack in next curve. One of best cars for nonghost racing.

Spinner: very similar to EasySlider, so avoiding contacts is almost impossible. Car weight is low, so it's really hard to damage somebody by rough racing on purpose (he can easily modify his line and keep up).

Slider: contacts are okay as well, but people have to put some more attention, because of car physics & speed. The limit between rough and fair isn't exactly visible, so some players might result way too aggressive in battles (e.g. MaunoKasa, and also Janne if he drives his original Slider-style when somebody is in front of him).

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Re: test results

Post by iBlaze² » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:07 pm

Mike Nike wrote:Unfortunately he told me right after the cup, that the cup made fun and was good enough to keep it *shock*.
Yes, but only on more suitable circuits. The 'test' clearly showed me how unsuitable the default circuits are for non-ghost fairplay racing (just look at the speeder race in Puddles, that was ridiculous!). However, I feel at many other racing circuits we would not see that kind of chaos.

So, after the 'test cup' and from people's feedback, it has taught me that track selection is the key thing to focus on. So for future cups, track selection will still be (kind of) random, however it will use non-default circuits. Also, the 'random' draw will be made by me BEFORE i open the server, so i can check that each circuit is suitable BEFORE the cup. (Maybe this makes it a little less random, but nobody will know which circuits have been selected until the cup begins anyway, so this will still keep the unknown quantity). Another thing about using non-default circuits, is that there are so many different ones to choose from.

Cars will still be used once each and in a random order, I will simply have to make sure all 5 tracks are suitable for all 5 cars.

Other things people brought up...

dede wrote:I would've used different starting order, though, because reverse doesn't exactly work when there are big differences between players' skills: driving normal lines at first curve would result in big accidents, because the top of the group is slow. Order by fastest lap, cup points or race results would've worked better (possibility to battle directly against equally skilled players).
I've already explained my reason for this to dede, but so that everybody else knows, it was pretty much the same as olio's response...
olio wrote:Reverse cup order starting mode is good for this kind of fun driving. Fastest lap/last race results/cup order would need a qualify for the first race. It could happen with random that dede would start from first row and Janne from last. That would totally give an unfair advantage for dede.
My other reason is that it makes the cup winner work for their victory by actually doing some overtaking, rather than starting from the front and driving away. Also, it gives lesser-skilled players (such as myself) a chance to pick up a big result by starting at the front. As for random grid order, well olio hit the nail on the head with his dede/Janne scenario there. And could you imagine how bad that would be if this situation occured in the final race and dede and Janne were equal on points, battling it out for the cup win?

The other thing brought up by olio was this...
olio wrote:For the points system I would like for the 20,19,18,...3,2,1. Then every position would be worth fighting for.
However, I disagree with this. My basis for this is simple. The reverse cup grid order rewards lesser-skilled drivers and punishes high-skilled drivers. The points system rewards high-skilled drivers and punishes lesser-skilled drivers. The two compliment each other perfectly. Also, my points system used is just a modified version of the current F1 points system. Wins are rewarded more. Fastest lap is also rewarded. Again, this should give more motivation to push for victory, rather than settle for 2nd best. Players may not be so bothered about finishing 2nd and losing just 1 point to a rival as they are if they are losing 4 points to a rival.

When I post my blog about this 'test cup' on the [iR] website, you will probably hear all of this again. However, I have already updated the iRSC section of the site with the reviewed format for the cup (which is basically just to replace default circuits with proper racing circuits).

In the end, it was fun, even if it wasn't so serious. And sometimes people forget that TS is just a game. It seems to me that we have so many serious cups nowadays (IRT, IHLC, DIT, KRT, GPOR, etc) and that's not a bad thing, but in my opinion it is causing some players to forget that we don't have to take things so seriously all of the time. So when I decide to host the iRSC #1, take that into account. If we can manage non-ghost fairplay racing in the Community Server without taking it seriously, then surely we can manage it in an organised cup without taking it seriously :)

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Post by Scud » Mon Feb 16, 2009 6:23 pm

I would say keep this cup like it is right now. Just use only non-chaotic tracks...
~siLciR <3~

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Re: test results

Post by olio » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:07 pm

iBlaze² wrote:However, I disagree with this. My basis for this is simple. The reverse cup grid order rewards lesser-skilled drivers and punishes high-skilled drivers. The points system rewards high-skilled drivers and punishes lesser-skilled drivers. The two compliment each other perfectly. Also, my points system used is just a modified version of the current F1 points system. Wins are rewarded more. Fastest lap is also rewarded. Again, this should give more motivation to push for victory, rather than settle for 2nd best. Players may not be so bothered about finishing 2nd and losing just 1 point to a rival as they are if they are losing 4 points to a rival.
I understand what you are trying to get with the point system, but I don't like how it's towards people that finish around 10th position. Even now basically only 7 players got points, and we have no idea of the real order from 8th position towards. At least I would like to know it. And for those who just start TS, it's nice to compare their development from cup to cup. Quite hard if you always get just 0 points, or sometimes 1 point. If there would be 20 players, it's possible that drivers in positions 10-20 could all have 0 points, even though some driver might be beating others on that group all the time. And I think it brings down the motivation for driving on the lower places. So how about making the point amounts bigger? Still keep the margin in the top, so that victory is much more valuable but that points would continue all the way to 20th position. Start from 30, 40, 50, whatever seems nice.

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Re: test results

Post by iBlaze² » Mon Feb 16, 2009 8:43 pm

olio wrote:And for those who just start TS, it's nice to compare their development from cup to cup. Quite hard if you always get just 0 points, or sometimes 1 point.
That's is a very good point actually. Taking this into consideration, I've thought up a new points system which would see the points stretched out amongst all positions (except 20th because nobody deserves a point for finishing in last place! lol). However, it still keeps the margin at the top (just as you said).

1st = 35
2nd = 30
3rd = 26
4th = 23
5th = 20
6th = 18
7th = 16
8th = 14
9th = 12
10th = 10
11th = 9
12th = 8
13th = 7
14th = 6
15th = 5
16th = 4
17th = 3
18th = 2
19th = 1
20th = 0
(Fastest Lap = 1)

Basically, the further up the field you get, the bigger the points difference between positions (5,4,3,3,2,2,2,2,2,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1).

How does this sound?

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Post by Storm » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:19 pm

well, "we have many ghost cups already" hmm... a... 1?! IRT? thats the only racing ghost cup we have as far as i know! despite that new Scud cup wich is different...

I liked the idea of the cup -10 laps -5 different tracks - default-cars just think that ghost is imperial on that kinda race, i just cant take it, its not funny to pwn or get pwned unless its intended to be that way and that's just what happens and it can never get fair. somone can loose a race because of others even if they are fair- someome crash in front of u - u smash him - he let u pass - 5 cars passed and u come from 2nd to 7th.
it is only possible with players that know the concept of fairplay and it will still be hard to be fair.

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Re: test results

Post by dede » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:42 pm

iBlaze² wrote:
olio wrote:And for those who just start TS, it's nice to compare their development from cup to cup. Quite hard if you always get just 0 points, or sometimes 1 point.
That's is a very good point actually.
You are starting to become lame. Last time I suggested that, it wasn't a good point; if olio suggests it it's a good point? :D

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Post by iBlaze² » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:01 pm

dede wrote:You are starting to become lame. Last time I suggested that, it wasn't a good point; if olio suggests it it's a good point? :D
No actually, you suggested changing the points system for a different reason. In fact, your reason was "to make every position worth fighting for". And, that is not the reason I have changed the points system at all.

olio suggested it for a different reason. olio's reason was so that newcomers can see how their performance improves from cup-to-cup. And, as I used to do that myself on the [iR] website, I saw this as a much better reason. That's why I changed the system.

Anyway, who cares what my reason for changing it is? The only thing that matters is that the points system has changed (which is still what you wanted in the end). So please don't be so childish dede (of all people, I didn't think I'd be saying that to you!).

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Post by dede » Mon Feb 16, 2009 10:30 pm

iBlaze² wrote:So please don't be so childish dede (of all people, I didn't think I'd be saying that to you!).
I know, it was meant as a joke :P
Good that you changed it anyway, maybe I didn't explain it correctly the first time, but I think exactly the same way as olio described :)

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