Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

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Flexman
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Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:47 pm

What TS 2.0 now needs is some normal servers that only use standard tiles. So that you can download the game and start playing.

The problem is that this is not possible anymore since tracks got to huge. Last time we had to give up playing because every track took about 5 minutes to load. Of cource the race was over when the track finished loading...

Even worse with the speedway-pack. More than 100 MB downloads for strange speedway ovals???

But ok everyone like he wants, but I think there should be more simple servers.

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Post by dede » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:00 pm

Community Server [BEL] is mainly with default tiles. I guess there is just one server with huge tiles (F1).

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Post by Flexman » Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:43 pm

I don't know but something is wrong here. When TS 2.0 is without limits, player numbers should have increased, but maybe the servers with big tracks keep people out or one should make more public that TS 2.0 is now out and unlimited.

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Post by dede » Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Flexman wrote:When TS 2.0 is without limits, player numbers should have increased, but maybe the servers with big tracks keep people out
Actually the server you're talking about has players almost 24h/day. And that's the only server with players.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by zanttu » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:02 am

Flexman wrote:What TS 2.0 now needs is some normal servers that only use standard tiles. So that you can download the game and start playing.

The problem is that this is not possible anymore since tracks got to huge. Last time we had to give up playing because every track took about 5 minutes to load. Of cource the race was over when the track finished loading...

Even worse with the speedway-pack. More than 100 MB downloads for strange speedway ovals???

But ok everyone like he wants, but I think there should be more simple servers.
Yeah there are many tracks over 2 MBs... Not problem with fast connection but if you have slower connection, u won't get the track in time.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Sun Dec 21, 2008 11:56 am

zanttu wrote: Yeah there are many tracks over 2 MBs... Not problem with fast connection but if you have slower connection, u won't get the track in time.
Belive me, I have a fast connection. But TS is not sendng the data very quick especially if a race is going on currently. So it's definaltely not a problem with the connection.

Also Remember that it also depends on the servers connection and many people have a much weaker upload rate if they have some ADSL-Internet. If you now have a race going and 4 new plays connecting this can already cause problems too.

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Post by Janne » Sun Dec 21, 2008 12:03 pm

I'm already waiting when some of you are going to make a good F1 track with only standard tiles.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by dede » Sun Dec 21, 2008 3:56 pm

Flexman wrote:But TS is not sendng the data very quick especially if a race is going on currently. So it's definaltely not a problem with the connection.
It's not really a problem about connections nor TS. It's a problem about players not reading properly.
Tracks were downloadable through the gpor website, into a pack. With average connection it's possible to download it in few minutes. If players keep on downloading tracks from the server, it's their choice (or they are idiots). :P

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:30 pm

dede wrote: Tracks were downloadable through the gpor website, into a pack.
You can't expect everyone to check out if he has to download anything before using some server.

The average player pops in, wants to play and if this is not possible because there is another download orgy only then he says goodbye again.
Janne wrote:I'm already waiting when some of you are going to make a good F1 track with only standard tiles.
I'm not interested anyway in making a F1 track, but I'm pretty sure it is possible with a much smaller tile set. I can remember there was someone doing tracks that looked a little bit like micro machines and they didn't even need long to load.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Janne » Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:26 pm

Flexman wrote:I'm not interested anyway in making a F1 track, but I'm pretty sure it is possible with a much smaller tile set.
In TSE_tracks only track layouts are made by using photoshop and the rest is made by using only default TS-tiles, but the tracks still have a size of over 1MB.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by dede » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:43 pm

Flexman wrote:You can't expect everyone to check out if he has to download anything before using some server.
But I expect that if he notices that files are too big, he will connect to the website to download the trackpack.
Flexman wrote:The average player pops in, wants to play and if this is not possible because there is another download orgy only then he says goodbye again.
If the average player has any average brain, he would download the trackpack from the website, after noticing that he wouldn't have any chance to download tracks from that server.
Flexman wrote:I can remember there was someone doing tracks that looked a little bit like micro machines and they didn't even need long to load.
I experimented a little bit of trackmaking, and smallest "good looking" tracks can't be less than 500kB. As Janne said, only track shape requires almost 1mB.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:49 pm

dede wrote: But I expect that if he notices that files are too big, he will connect to the website to download the trackpack.
Not really. People expect a game to be installed and working without needing to figure out which tracks you get from where. Does not having to to with how much brain you have, just it's better if it's easy.
dede wrote:I experimented a little bit of trackmaking, and smallest "good looking" tracks can't be less than 500kB. As Janne said, only track shape requires almost 1mB.
"good looking" is relative, for me original tracks are already good looking enough. People rather should spend their creative potential in making normal tracks than starting a competition like "wo makes the highest skyscraper?". Why it generally is fine that you can make your own tiles it now got a little too much out of control for my taste.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by dede » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:17 pm

Flexman wrote:Not really. People expect a game to be installed and working without needing to figure out which tracks you get from where. Does not having to to with how much brain you have, just it's better if it's easy.
630 players showed up in 1 month. Online activity for over 12 hours/day for whole month. As soon as F1 ended, all players disappeared. And there are default car servers, but they are empty. Apparently people play the game the way they like, no matter if it requires external downloads.
Maybe it's ONLY your own problem, after all.
dede wrote:"good looking" is relative, for me original tracks are already good looking enough...Why it generally is fine that you can make your own tiles it now got a little too much out of control for my taste.
Well, for me all tracks for "random default racing" with size > 200kB are just tracks not to be used in racing servers.
But try to race both default tracks and TSE tracks with GPOR-Form1, and you will figure out the difference. TSE tracks (excluding some) are obstacles-free, so races are tighter and more funny. As long as server owners provide a trackpack download, hosting a 24h server is alright.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Janne » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:19 pm

Flexman wrote: "good looking" is relative, for me original tracks are already good looking enough. People rather should spend their creative potential in making normal tracks than starting a competition like "wo makes the highest skyscraper?". Why it generally is fine that you can make your own tiles it now got a little too much out of control for my taste.
But I think that by using default tiles, it would be both very hard and time consuming to make a good shape for F1 track.

With a good shape I mean a shape that's pleasure to drive.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Sun Dec 21, 2008 10:28 pm

Janne wrote:
But I think that by using default tiles, it would be both very hard and time consuming to make a good shape for F1 track.

With a good shape I mean a shape that's pleasure to drive.
Ok then maybe you'd suggest Ande to add other default tiles if the normal ones are so bad too drive.

BTW: I newer noticed that it is not a pleasure driving with the standard tiles. It even was a pleasure with Version 0.82 I think. Most pleasure is if there are more than 10 players in a server...

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by dede » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:21 am

Flexman wrote:Ok then maybe you'd suggest Ande to add other default tiles if the normal ones are so bad too drive.
Obviously you don't know what are you talking about. And actually it's possible already to make a own ts-based game with custom tilesets (TS TotalMod). But since that would split the community (read "kill turbosliders"), and it wouldn't solve the problem of huge tracks (because in order to have custom shapes, there can't be preset curves, so tracks wouldn't be smaller than 700kB).
Flexman wrote:Most pleasure is if there are more than 10 players in a server...
So? What are you complaining about? The GPOR F1 Server gave you the possibility to connect there and play immediately with several players, at any time of the day, for a whole month.
Saying that it was bad just because "tracks were too big" is just crazy and dumb, considering that over 600 players played and downloaded all tracks in 2 minutes from the website.

Anyway, if it was up to me, I would've restricted TurboSliders to default cars and tracks only. No punaball, xbumpz, and so on. No photoshopped tracks/tiles. No rough racing. Just random default cars racing with good default racing tracks.
But, considering the way things are going in last years, there would've been very few players there. Just check who joined IRT/IHLC/JJT more than once. I don't think you would find more than 100 players overall.
So the future of TurboSliders is F1? I hope not, but there is nobody interested in default cars racing apparently.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Janne » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:00 am

Flexman wrote: Ok then maybe you'd suggest Ande to add other default tiles if the normal ones are so bad too drive.
No? That's not what I want. I'm only talking about creating and driving F1 tracks but you don't seem to know anything about it. Those default tiles, that you use for making track shapes, doesn't fit so well to GPOR F1 car character but they do fit for default cars.

I actually prefer to do default car racing in tracks with default tiles. If you bring 10 players to some default track racing server, I'll sure be there too.

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Post by Flexman » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:06 am

Eh... I wasn't talking about F1 at all, you started with F1. I'm not interested in playing F1, and I really don't know about F1, and I newer said I knew about F1.

All I noticed if you connect to a server you often have to download too much. And if standard tiles are not good enough for you maybe you'd at least create one standard addon instead of many different. (e.g. like the guys did with the Speedway pack. 100 MB still is insane but at least you don't need anything else then).

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by olio » Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:58 am

dede wrote:Saying that it was bad just because "tracks were too big" is just crazy and dumb, considering that over 600 players played and downloaded all tracks in 2 minutes from the website.
It's just crazy and dumb to think that all 600 players downloaded the tracks from the website.

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Post by Janne » Mon Dec 22, 2008 12:33 pm

Flexman wrote:I'm not interested in playing F1
How can big files then bother you? In community server (default car racing) there's not a single huge track, I think.

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Mon Dec 22, 2008 1:08 pm

olio wrote:
dede wrote:Saying that it was bad just because "tracks were too big" is just crazy and dumb, considering that over 600 players played and downloaded all tracks in 2 minutes from the website.
It's just crazy and dumb to think that all 600 players downloaded the tracks from the website.
And it's even crazier offending someone because of that. I didn't call anyone crazy or stupid.

And if he wants to tell me that I am completely wrong because players are only interested in some F1 and realistic stuff then he doesn't know that 0.8x versions had much more players, at least two full servers (16 people). And all this without even having an own domain or publisher, only having simple graphics with standard tiles.

However, you can't discuss with someone who just offends you...

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by dede » Mon Dec 22, 2008 2:49 pm

Ok, so I'm dumb and stupid, since I can't really find out what's your point. If a player wants to play F1, it's clear that he has to download the F1 pack. If a player wants to play Speedway, it's clear that he has to download the Speedway mod.
Default cars servers for random racing shouldn't have such big tiles, and infact they don't have them. As Janne says, main default racing servers have only tracks with limited size, so that players can connect and play immediately without downloading any tracks from anywhere. It's just inapproprate to say that game is going to wrong direction in matter of custom tiles, because custom tiles tracks aren't really used in normal default cars servers.

Anyway, what's the difference between 0.8x and 2.0? They are both free, but TS 2.0 offers wider game experience. And it's quite predictable that players prefer "realistic" F1 instead of some fantasy cars. That's a shame, because we can't get new players to default cars racing easily (or at least, not as easily as GPOR did with F1).

However, shame that you feel offended. I was just saying that if a player wants to play F1 (and by F1 I mean that F1 cup), he needs to download tracks like if it was an own mod. Now, if a player connects to the server without downloading tracks before (it actually happened very often), he wouldn't be able to play unless he manages to download tracks from the server very quickly. Other players, then, would tell him to go and download the trackpack. If he doesn't do that and keeps on trying to download tracks from the server, then excuse me but he is stupid. :D
But apparently, that's not your case, since you said that you are not interested in F1 racing. So if you are talking about creating tracks for default cars using big custom tiles, that's a bit stupid if those tracks are supposed to be raced in automatic servers. But I don't see any (european) servers having such big tracks either , so I don't really understand what you are talking about. Maybe explain better, then?

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by Flexman » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:48 pm

dede wrote:And it's quite predictable that players prefer "realistic" F1 instead of some fantasy cars.
Not really. If someone wants to have something realistic he will chose a 3D game like trackmania anyway. For me there is no point in trying to get 2D-games as realistic as possible, but since more players now seem to be interested in F1, well ok. I just wonder if we somehow can get the players back that left.
dede wrote:I was just saying that if a player wants to play F1 (and by F1 I mean that F1 cup), he needs to download tracks like if it was an own mod. Now, if a player connects to the server without downloading tracks before (it actually happened very often), he wouldn't be able to play unless he manages to download tracks from the server very quickly. Other players, then, would tell him to go and download the trackpack
Ok please read this again and tell me if it sounds like a good solution...

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Re: Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Post by dede » Mon Dec 22, 2008 3:54 pm

Flexman wrote:I just wonder if we somehow can get the players back that left.
So we have the same goal. Not just those we left, but convince newbies to play default cars.
Flexman wrote:Ok please read this again and tell me if it sounds like a good solution...
That's the only possible solution to play F1 tracks. Another way would be to create a specific mod (like the speedway mod) dedicated to F1. But that would be stupid (those who don't have the mod, can't even join the server), and new tracks would still be downloadable.

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Post by Flexman » Mon Dec 22, 2008 7:05 pm

Ok, here is one example for making a track big just for nothing:

I took TSE_Monaco. The mar.png has 694 KB. I reduced it to 256 colors without having any big difference. Then it had 78 KB. So, 616 KB were wasted. And that was just one file and not the whole track.

The other file (monza.png) I could get to 26 KB instead of 172 etc. And there I didn't even optimize the color palette.

And this is done wrong with most tracks.

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