Better "normal" servers with standard tiles

Discussion related to Turbo Sliders and beta version feedback.

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Tzuikka.
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going off topic

Post by Tzuikka. » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:42 pm

Im going off topic for a bit, cuz' I would just want to know where can I download the new ts 2.00 something..?

P.S. Greetings to Dede, long time no see.
Losing to first one is all about winning third one.

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Flexman
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Re: going off topic

Post by Flexman » Wed Dec 24, 2008 12:55 pm

Tzuikka. wrote:Im going off topic for a bit, cuz' I would just want to know where can I download the new ts 2.00 something..?
Slightly offtopic, but you definately can get it here.

But somehow this comment fits to dede's opinion that it is sooo easy downloading the needed tracks although some people still seem to have problems downloading Turbosliders...

BTW: I still wonder why no one just got the idea making tracks less than half size by just reducing color depth to 256 colors... Or is it done anyway in the optimized TSE-Tracks?

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dede
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Re: going off topic

Post by dede » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:02 pm

Flexman wrote:But somehow this comment fits to dede's opinion that it is sooo easy downloading the needed tracks although some people still seem to have problems downloading Turbosliders...
LoL! I actually thought that downloading the game was so easy, but apparently a link in the header of all turbosliders.com pages - Download the Demo - (except the forum&wiki) isn't easy enough! :D
Flexman wrote:BTW: I still wonder why no one just got the idea making tracks less than half size by just reducing color depth to 256 colors... Or is it done anyway in the optimized TSE-Tracks?
TSE images are saved as PNG-24, which preserves the smoothness and the correct transparency. You can check yourself what's the difference by replacing those images with PNG-8 images, for example. Anyway, saving half size (from 1MB to 500KB) wouldn't solve the download problem, since most of players wouldn't really be able to download the track inside TS in 30 seconds (standard idle time between races).
Anyway, what's the big deal with photoshopped tracks? There are about 20 photoshopped tracks that can be used for F1 cups. If people don't download tracks separately, they can't play. That's it, just like for other TS mods like Speedway.

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Flexman
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Re: going off topic

Post by Flexman » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:30 pm

dede wrote:LoL! I actually thought that downloading the game was so easy, but apparently a link in the header of all turbosliders.com pages - Download the Demo - (except the forum&wiki) isn't easy enough! :D
Uh, oh. I have to admit I didn't see this link either. The Turbosliders site is sooo overloaded that you don't see the essential things first. It doesn't even have something like a screenshot on the entrance so that you really see what it is about.

However, I somehow managed downloading the game without having to ask in the forum... But as I said this comment shows how real your perception is about what players do and which things they find easily.
dede wrote:TSE images are saved as PNG-24, which preserves the smoothness and the correct transparency. You can check yourself what's the difference by replacing those images with PNG-8 images, for example.
Seems people don't have much idea about image formats.

You have transparency in every color depth (except 2 colors I think), and if you have the right color palette you can also make it as good with less colors. You just have to optimize the color palette and if in some case you still need 16 million colors you don't have to make all files 256 colors but in my example I didn't notice any big difference.
dede wrote:Anyway, saving half size (from 1MB to 500KB) wouldn't solve the download problem, since most of players wouldn't really be able to download the track inside TS in 30 seconds (standard idle time between races).
It'll still improve the performance and in my example the track would even have less than half the size.

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Re: going off topic

Post by Tijny » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:25 pm

Flexman wrote:
dede wrote:TSE images are saved as PNG-24, which preserves the smoothness and the correct transparency. You can check yourself what's the difference by replacing those images with PNG-8 images, for example.
Seems people don't have much idea about image formats.

You have transparency in every color depth (except 2 colors I think), and if you have the right color palette you can also make it as good with less colors. You just have to optimize the color palette and if in some case you still need 16 million colors you don't have to make all files 256 colors but in my example I didn't notice any big difference.
What dede means is that PNG-8 images don't have an alpha channel (partial transparency) which causes the track edges to be jagged. But you're right, saving as PNG-8 is definitely worth considering since it doesn't look as bad in-game as I thought.

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Post by Tzuikka. » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:30 pm

Well I just want to ad to my earlier comment, that I've not played TS or seen anything about it in almost 3 months.. so its kinda hard for me to keep up with some new upgrades/versions that came to this game.
Losing to first one is all about winning third one.

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Re: going off topic

Post by dede » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:41 pm

Flexman wrote:{...}but in my example I didn't notice any big difference.
Hmm, I actually noticed big differences between PNG-24 and PNG-8. But yeah, I'm not really into design, so I don't know if there is a better way to have both limited size and optimal graphics. I just know that I tried with PNG-8 and other formats, and it didn't come out well. Yeah, image looks apparently the same, but inside TS result is horrible (at least in my tests).

Edit: yeah, Tijny got my point. That's what I mean with "horrible". Maybe there is a way to make it look smoother, but I don't know it. Creating tracks with PNG-8 just because it saves half of the size would drop quality of the image too much. Definitively not worth using PNG-8, at least in my tracks.

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Post by Jazzyclub » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:04 pm

the best way to save size is to make tracks like my way...

just make the white lines or other marked line on asphalt, then cover with the normal asphalt tile of ts...

believe me, it save a LOT of size!!

an example??
mondello park edge=145kb (2000*1504)
mondello park pat=28.7kb

quadeburgh=545kb (1600*1400)
quadeburgh pat=18.1kb

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Post by Scud » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:37 pm

Stop fighting :lol: I think TS works just great as it is now. Tracks for default cars can be downloaded directly from the servers and bigger files can be downloaded from website... and I dont see it is too complicated.

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dede
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Post by dede » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:18 pm

Scud wrote:Tracks for default cars can be downloaded directly from the servers and bigger files can be downloaded from website... and I dont see it is too complicated.
Merry Christmas!

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Post by Punatiainen » Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:54 am

I have always agreed that default tiles are the way to go. But if the game is so flexible that people can make their own tiles, i guess that's not their fault then. Still trackmakers should pay more attention in their picture/file sizes. I sometimes use some special tiles, but usually they are just something little extra with minimum file size and amount of files.
Flexman wrote:I think there should be more simple servers.
Sure. My thought has always been, that if you don't see a server which you like, then make your own. Of course not all can host a server, myself included, so i bought the service from external server provider.
Janne wrote:I'm already waiting when some of you are going to make a good F1 track with only standard tiles.
http://www.turbosliders.com/view_track.php?id=453
http://www.turbosliders.com/view_track.php?id=447
http://www.turbosliders.com/view_track.php?id=481 ;)

I have always liked to make F1 tracks in "TS-way", so that the trackshape doesn't need to be exactly like the real one, if driving the track feels like driving the real one. And default tiles and default editor used of course :)

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Post by Janne » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:25 pm

Punatiainen wrote:
Janne wrote:I'm already waiting when some of you are going to make a good F1 track with only standard tiles.
http://www.turbosliders.com/view_track.php?id=453
http://www.turbosliders.com/view_track.php?id=447
http://www.turbosliders.com/view_track.php?id=481 ;)

I have always liked to make F1 tracks in "TS-way", so that the trackshape doesn't need to be exactly like the real one, if driving the track feels like driving the real one. And default tiles and default editor used of course :)
Failed. Those are great tracks for default cars but not for GPOR F1 car. Sure those are F1 tracks when it comes to the shape but it's not the thing I was talking about. Drivability with the F1 car is main point and it can be fully fictional "F1" track too as long as it fits for the F1 car.

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Post by Flexman » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:21 pm

Ok just tell me a track where you think it is well done but still big and I'll check out if I can get it smaller.

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dede
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Post by dede » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:10 pm

Flexman wrote:Ok just tell me a track where you think it is well done but still big and I'll check out if I can get it smaller.
http://www.turbosliders.com/show_tracks ... kname=TSE_

Have fun. Check the quality too, so that you can notice yourself if it drops too much.

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Post by Flexman » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:05 am

dede wrote:
Flexman wrote:Ok just tell me a track where you think it is well done but still big and I'll check out if I can get it smaller.
http://www.turbosliders.com/show_tracks ... kname=TSE_

Have fun. Check the quality too, so that you can notice yourself if it drops too much.
Ok fine. :)

I took a quick look at TSE_Silgreen which needs 554 KB.

Silgreen-pat.png and TSE_Silgreen-pat.png are well optimized. I reduced Silgreen.png from 396 to 102 KB. You can still use half-transparent pixel if you keep the picture as PNG-24 but use the palette of a 256 colored PNG on it.

This would make the track half size but you'll also notice a difference there. So this TSE-Track is not too bad, improving the size with a normal image editor might not be very comfortable.

If there was some tool where you can optimize color palettes (and keep the transparency as it is), it would be much easier to get better results ans sizes. I'll have a look if there is some tool like this.

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