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lux2
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Post by lux2 » Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:58 pm

Whiplash wrote:we need more free time

True! That's the point IMO.
Those "we" that want to spend their life to reach useless things as a "good rank" are still free to do that but the rank will be more "true" with a lowest number of lucky laps intrusions.

I only ask TS to give me some minutes of fun after dinner and I agree that this is not the right place for my ideas :wink: so, I will not write other stupid things.


oops, last stupid OT thing.
Any other server you can add seems to be welcome, but is it really?
We need more players much more than we need more servers.
I actually play FC not because I like that much it but only beacuse it's the only server with some player.
If the result of a wanking server is to reduce the players on other server(s) I think it's not a good thing. Only one more step toward the TS die day.

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Post by Whiplash » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:14 pm

Del wrote:I have a few points to make too hoho:
1. Wanking isn't an accurate measurement of driving skill for all the reasons mentioned above + the fact that someone can be lion of fast lap totes but turtle in race. Try doing a 10-lap race in wank-mode (try to be pixel-perfect) and then race mode and compare the overall time.
2. Wank server? Host one yourself? Accept Many's offer? Make a professional hosting company rent you one?
3. On pre-released tracks you will always have an advantage if you have played more than your opponent (though the effect will diminish rather quickly). Track autogeneration would be nice Tinjy! Hoho
4. The best (and only) way to really rank players in any (if only very slightly) meaningful way is to organise lots of different types of cups with different cars, rule sets...
Memory leak and general fail :/:/:/

Arguing with Del is like playing paraolimpic games. Even if I win - I would still be a retard.

lux2 wrote:I only ask TS to give me some minutes of fun after dinner and I agree that this is not the right place for my ideas :wink: so, I will not write other stupid things.

oops, last stupid OT thing.
Any other server you can add seems to be welcome, but is it really?
We need more players much more than we need more servers.
I actually play FC not because I like that much it but only beacuse it's the only server with some player.
If the result of a wanking server is to reduce the players on other server(s) I think it's not a good thing. Only one more step toward the TS die day.

I guess you have no much wanking experience. There is nothing that could be called lucky. There is no lucky laps, there are only good and not that good laps.
Also, Wanking server was almost more visited than FC server last year, so there is no worry of losing activity. We had more than 60 ranked players in just few sessions.

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Post by olio » Wed Jul 13, 2011 1:41 pm

Whiplash wrote:And not the same ping, connection, laggs, day time, etc. etc. :P
It's not just that simple.

Yes, it really isn't that simple. Not all have the same monitor, same PC, as good keyboard either. It's not just that simple. Even in offline. I'm just saying, that still the best way to compare pure wanking skill is cup like IHLC. Even with the problems you did mention and other things that have been under conversation in here.

Whiplash wrote:As dede said, there is no way to see who's the best driver, but the main ranking is a nice and the most practical and fair way to see infos of all drivers speed.

Uhm, where did dede say that the main ranking is the best way to see people's speed?


So is it now that there is luck or there isn't? First you say that you need luck in wanking and then that there is no luck involved in wanking.

Whiplash wrote:Well, that's the same thing as the lap wanking. That's even worst: we will need more free time, and much more luck.

Whiplash wrote:I guess you have no much wanking experience. There is nothing that could be called lucky. There is no lucky laps, there are only good and not that good laps.

Oh, and in old school wanking words "lucky lap" were exactly the ones that were used to describe an excellent lap. It was very common to hear Tijny or dede say, "I need just that one lucky lap". But I guess they don't have much wanking experience then either.. ;)

In general I would really suggest you to pay attention to what Tijny and dede are saying. After all, they were wankers already in the golden era of wanking and they DO know what they are talking about.

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Post by Whiplash » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:20 pm

olio wrote:In general I would really suggest you to pay attention to what Tijny and dede are saying. After all, they were wankers already in the golden era of wanking and they DO know what they are talking about.

I ll listen to them when kappa (or anyone else) manage to do mission impossible: to be the first on the main ranking without being faster than they are. It's only possible on Puna or Gpor ranking. :P
I heard what's lucky lap, but I never heard for "lucky 40 laps", or "consistence of luck".
That's why I just said that to lux. He probably thinks that it's all about getting lucky lap. What lucky lap means? Lucky lap for me is not what lucky lap for T is. :P Some PRO with lucky lap means only 1st lap time. For others, making lucky lap means getting 10th or 20th time on the ranking. :P

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Mike Nike
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Post by Mike Nike » Wed Jul 13, 2011 3:42 pm

@olio
olio wrote:IHLC's and IRT's were 100% skill, new track for everyone, same amount of practice and same amount of laps.


ihlc - lot of players - lot of ghost irritation plus ping/lag can influence results too
irt - people with high ping/lags cant play so well

@all
if we want to fight about the definition of driving skills in turbo sliders, we can debate long, i think^^
some might say 100% nonghostracing, some might define it as mix of short and long nonghostraces, ghostraces and hotlap-sessions..

we might agree that we can split sliders skills into a lot of gametypes:
1 modifcations
- i.e. xb type of games
- pb type of games
- battle (missiles) type of games
..
2 racing online
- nonghostracing (fair)
- nonghostracing (rough)
- ghostracing
3 racing offline
- like in genereally :P...yeah, we might not have this in sliders, but if enough people shout loud, who have lags on official servers, maybe one day we organize a cup, where you download a track and have 1 hour time to drive a race local and send the video to the cup organization
4 hotlapcups online and offline
- ihlc online
- weekly wanking by benzinfurz, 7 days time, offline
- ts.com ranking unlimited days time, offline
- [xhlc offline]: a good cup might be, where you download a track and have 20, 30, 45 or 60 minutes time to drive a lap with 1 car on it and drive it local and send the result video to the cup organization, or instead or in addition: connect to the server and export your record(s). so no participant has any lag problems.

basicly, if we want just 1 skill ranking, we have to debate about the weight of each part-ranking...

but else, we have a lot of sweet little rankings, like monthly, yearly, alltime etc.
where 1 category can be offline-laprecord-hunt with subcategories from 10 to 30 to over 60 minute racelength distances...
where we can also debate about how much weight should influence the main category "most skilled offline laprecord hunter"..

i know there are players like tijny,dede,janne,matti,whip and me who are able to drive laptimes kinda close to alltime-records within the first 20, sometimes within the first 5 laps in 20sec-tracks.
where other players have the ability to drive similar or faster alltime-records, but they online drive 1 out of 200 laps close to the record, where good players drive 1 out of 40 laps close to the record or something..

you might often see dede flooding top x laptimes with some f1 car or ja megane and you see its was not just one lucky lap...
there we can go and look at the top 3 or 5 laptimes of a record hunt session and weight it into a different recordhunt-skill for a seperate ranking

we just got to define what we think should take most weight...
and speaking of that, i like to remind of tmx stats of trackmania nations back then :P...
where laprecords on most driven tracks count more for a mainranking than laprecs on tracks with just a few drivers who tried to hunt the record on it.

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Post by Whiplash » Wed Jul 13, 2011 4:18 pm

Olio, and Mike's doctors dissertation :)

I'm not sure if classes would help. All "live time" cups have too many restrictions. They just can't show clear image.
Wanking is not the perfect, but it shows the most relevant infos about our speed.
Even IHLC is far from that. Just imagine how all drivers look on it. Some of them are practising a lot just before the race, some of them not (because they don't have a time or something), and that's the big difference.
While you're wanking, there is no such a problems. You all know that we wank only when we have empty room, parents are not at home, we are horny enough etc. We wank only when we are in the mood, or we are bored.
That's not the case with any other competition. There you have to play even you're not that ready, while someone is maybe in superb shape. Just one little mistake can put you 5 places behind the players who are objectively much slower than you.
While you're wanking with unlimited number of laps, there is no any pressure. If you miss one lap, no need to be worried, there is another one.
So, maybe you ll not show good driving concentration, but you ll still show you're best speed and that's exactly what we need - pure speed free from any influence from outside.

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Post by Mike Nike » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:09 pm

Whiplash wrote:
Wanking is not the perfect, but it shows the most relevant infos about our speed.


well...that just depends on what you define as speed..
the result of many long local record hunt sessions with 1 car in a track or a trackpack i use to call as some sort of potential (=the maximum possible laptime someone can reach, more or less).
like mikko, sV, orange claudia, latuska etc - if they reach strong laprecords and practice long enough, they will be able to race fast and constant earlier or later - some more constant, some less..
so if you mean that with speed, i kinda agree..
but else people might disagree, because someone might prefer to call speed something like: dede driving races with fuel so unbelievable fast+constant 25min in a row...
and a fast+constant 25min race is like a 25min-lap :P...imo a much more valueable thing - just probably not so much valued by beginners, perhaps (because they use to see the laprecords ingame way more often)

Whiplash wrote:
Even IHLC is far from that. Just imagine how all drivers look on it. Some of them are practising a lot just before the race, some of them not (because they don't have a time or something), and that's the big difference.

yeah, that definately is an important point.
i also need in some days 50, 100 or more laps to even get so warm and focused, that im driving on my best level...in some days i dont even have the right conditions at all..just yesterday at last 5 laps of 2nd last track i suddenly felt from one lap to another i made a step to a level of being so tired, that my eye coordination feels like my brain is realizing only +-10 frames a second^^
but on the other hand...some people drive only max 50 laps a track for the ts.com ranking with each car on each track and some drive 200+ laps, some 500+...this is imo a way bigger problem if it comes to comparing laptimes...
but ihlc was only +-20 laps or something per car, right?..the luck factor is a bit too high there for my taste, even the track is 30sec long
some kindof 100 laps and average of top 3 or 5 laps id prefer, i think...

Whiplash wrote:
While you're wanking, there is no such a problems. You all know that we wank only when we have empty room, parents are not at home, we are horny enough etc. We wank only when we are in the mood, or we are bored.


lol...are we still talking about sliders?


Whiplash wrote: That's not the case with any other competition. There you have to play even you're not that ready, while someone is maybe in superb shape. Just one little mistake can put you 5 places behind the players who are objectively much slower than you.


well..you dont have to play every competition online..just the ones you are more or less prepared for
lets just say there are regular times for official ranked 1-hour-hotlap-cups (1 car, 1 track) each day or 2nd day (maybe even twice or three times a day), and sometimes there are 0 or 2 or sometimes 10 players playing...you can just put these sessions like 1vs1vs1..comparisons into elo-rankings for weekly, monthly, yearly rankings etc. and all is fine :P
although, of course, if we would drive on existing tracks, it would mean that some people wanked on it already and have advantages..

but even with 1 new track/month only, skipping 6 out of 12 hotlap-1hour-cups a year...would still result into a good 1vs1 comparison in an elo system, i can imagine

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Post by Whiplash » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:37 pm

Mike

Yep, all nicely said.
But whatever each of us thinks, this should be just one more competition with its specific rules. We should look more on its advantages. It's extremely easy to handle it for admins. There is no such a competition where unlimited players can join and fight in the same battle. All people from all around the world can easily participate with no any disadvantage. And, after all, it's extremely fun and challenging. :wink:

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Post by dede » Wed Jul 13, 2011 5:41 pm

Agreed that there is no way to rank "overall skills", I believe that wanking is all a matter of luck between players with similar skills.

After 6 years of wanking, I understood that all I need to beat a record is a proper amount of laps, if I can get somehow close to it (<0.1). Even unbeatable records are beatable, with enough dedication they will be beaten. And if I give up, the excuse is "no lucky lap".

Anyway, I still think that what you get by driving a default track record is a great feeling and it's worth thousand laps. Some might think I'm stupid, since I know that driving a record is of no use, but hell.. it's great! ;)

@lux
totaltime ranking is just like driving a looooong lap - if you crash you start all over again - more time needed

@nikemike
IHLC has luck involved, indeed, but several IHLC's can give a good idea about skills

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Post by olio » Wed Jul 13, 2011 6:11 pm

Mike Nike wrote:@olio
olio wrote:IHLC's and IRT's were 100% skill, new track for everyone, same amount of practice and same amount of laps.


ihlc - lot of players - lot of ghost irritation plus ping/lag can influence results too
irt - people with high ping/lags cant play so well


My point was a bit out of context there, I was just trying to say that in my personal opinion, IHLC is a better gauge (infact like dede said, several IHLC's) than offline wanking. For the reasons discussed in here. I agree, that those problems you gave are valid and very much real, but still. I think it gives better overview than offline ranking which is so heavily based on the amount of laps. Just look at the ranking, I'm ahead Janne in some tracks, no way that would be possible if he'd driven the same amount of laps as I.

I agree with you that IHLC is not the only way to determine best TS players, I wasn't suggesting that at the start. I was just saying that it tells more about players wanking ability than offline wanking.

Whiplash wrote:That's not the case with any other competition. There you have to play even you're not that ready, while someone is maybe in superb shape. Just one little mistake can put you 5 places behind the players who are objectively much slower than you.


Well, that's - Racing! :lol: Or maybe we should suggest Bernie Ecclestone, that F1 qualify should last for 3 days where every driver could drive as many laps as they wanted. Screw the pressure handling, performing your best while it's needed, facing difficult conditions and all. Just let them drive circles for 3 days. That'll so who's the best!

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Post by dede » Wed Jul 13, 2011 7:23 pm

Del wrote:
dede wrote:@lux
totaltime ranking is just like driving a looooong lap - if you crash you start all over again - more time needed
But there's definitely more skill involved as you have can't just attack corners at much too high speeds for your skill level (or you could but you're much less likely to get a good time).

Yes and no.. Top players will still manage to drive sick laps with constancy, and the result is that they will lose even more time than in normal wanking to drive a great lap. Just spectate a wanking session of real wankers in a well know track (e.g. minileap). We decide to complete only 30 laps out of 250, because we find the perfection. Imagine how many times I would restart the race because of a not-so-tight corner. Of course, ranking will show bigger gaps between different "classes", but it would be too much time consuming.
After all, the luck-factor is part of the wanking, and it's good like it is now: no need to remove it or increase its importance.

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Post by Mike Nike » Wed Jul 13, 2011 8:49 pm

dede wrote:Anyway, I still think that what you get by driving a default track record is a great feeling and it's worth thousand laps. Some might think I'm stupid, since I know that driving a record is of no use, but hell.. it's great! ;)


hehe, agree :)

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Post by Whiplash » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:10 pm

olio wrote:Just look at the ranking, I'm ahead Janne in some tracks, no way that would be possible if he'd driven the same amount of laps as I.

You can't count here people who didn't even play. We are predicting that many people will play it this time. Janne didn't even drive one single serious lap there. Last year he played Weekly wanking and got all top times.
Many of you saying: What if someone drives 1000 laps and someone just 3? Well, what's the problem if someone drives 10000 laps. He is not making the luck bigger with it, he makes his skill bigger with it. On next track he will need lower amount of laps to reach the same time because his skill is improved, and that's the point of this - drivers will feel a need to increase their skill. We will use the ranking to compare our speed with all others drivers. That's the only competition that allows you that - cool and nice list with all players and their abilities with all cars.

olio wrote:Well, that's - Racing! :lol: Or maybe we should suggest Bernie Ecclestone, that F1 qualify should last for 3 days where every driver could drive as many laps as they wanted. Screw the pressure handling, performing your best while it's needed, facing difficult conditions and all. Just let them drive circles for 3 days. That'll so who's the best!

You're still spinning whole thing to the wrong direction. This ranking shows drivers ability, not their position in all next races. It shows how fast someone is, not what will be his place in some next race or cup.

dede wrote:After all, the luck-factor is part of the wanking, and it's good like it is now: no need to remove it or increase its importance.

Exactly!

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Post by olio » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:29 am

Whiplash wrote:You're still spinning whole thing to the wrong direction.


Nope, I'm not. I'm only giving a different perspective that you seem to fail to see. That is because you are so much in love with wanking, that you don't realize that not everyone is. I'll put my point into a one single phrase where all this started.

Not everyone will wank thousands of laps, so offline wanking is not the best meter of someones possible max speed. It's really that simple. I think I'm done with this discussion, because it seems that we'll never agree on this and for that reason we aren't getting anywhere.



(btw, the discussion on other thread is interesting as well and sadly it's the same thing that seems to always happen on racing (in this case FC) servers. Records that were done in race get wiped out by people who set the laps to 100 or something and go after the records only. On those servers I give value much more to a record that is done in a race situation than a record that is wanked.)

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:29 am

olio wrote:Not everyone will wank thousands of laps, so offline wanking is not the best meter of someones possible max speed. It's really that simple. I think I'm done with this discussion, because it seems that we'll never agree on this and for that reason we aren't getting anywhere.

O man, yeah, not everyone will wank thousands of laps, so not everyone will get a skill. In other ranking, you're getting better positions even you maybe didn't get that much skill. That's all because those rankings have many restrictions (they hardly make good comparison of all players, mostly because they're not practical). You are thinking that with many laps you only getting more chances for lucky lap. That's not true. You're getting skill with that at first. And ranking that shows our skill is welcome. We all drive as long as we feel that we didn't catch our limits. So, you can't give as examples drivers who didn't even drive to their limits. After we get satisfied time, we're going on next track. That doesn't mean that we are all satisfied with the same time.
Sometimes we will try an old track 1 or more years after (if we feel that we got some extra skill during that time). This ranking doesn't show our shape, it shows our limits. You're just expecting too much from it.
But anyway, I still think that it's the most relevant way too see somebody's overall potential. Not the perfect way, but the best possible way.
You're looking on wanking like on jerking or something. Wanking is the most serious way of competing. There is no better way to increase your speed, there is no better way to learn the cars, tricks and all other stuff. Putting the car to its limits is unbeatable way of practising and the most relevant way of competing.
All the best wankers are the most faster drivers. They didn't get their skill by playing races, they got their skill mostly by wanking! You can play FC for a years, but you ll never be better there than a Wanker. The same rule works with all other racing competitions.

olio wrote:(btw, the discussion on other thread is interesting as well and sadly it's the same thing that seems to always happen on racing (in this case FC) servers. Records that were done in race get wiped out by people who set the laps to 100 or something and go after the records only.)

Man, we didn't wank there to make illusion that we are the best drivers. We didn't put many laps there to cheat our speed. We did it just for fun and for challenge. But anyway, just join sometimes on that server. Who is always winning the cups??? Wankers baby! Wanking is not just a driving around and around like you all want to put here. Wanking gives you overall skill (even for contact competitions). The best FC deivers aren't those ones who play there every day, but those ones who mastered the cars. Mastering the cars = Wanking. :P
olio wrote:On those servers I give value much more to a record that is done in a race situation than a record that is wanked

Pretty the same guys. :)

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Post by Tijny » Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:16 am

Whiplash wrote:O man, yeah, not everyone will wank thousands of laps, so not everyone will get a skill. In other ranking, you're getting better positions even you maybe didn't get that much skill. That's all because those rankings have many restrictions (they hardly make good comparison of all players, mostly because they're not practical). You are thinking that with many laps you only getting more chances for lucky lap. That's not true. You're getting skill with that at first. And ranking that shows our skill is welcome. We all drive as long as we feel that we didn't catch our limits. So, you can't give as examples drivers who didn't even drive to their limits. After we get satisfied time, we're going on next track. That doesn't mean that we are all satisfied with the same time.
Sometimes we will try an old track 1 or more years after (if we feel that we got some extra skill during that time). This ranking doesn't show our shape, it shows our limits. You're just expecting too much from it.
But anyway, I still think that it's the most relevant way too see somebody's overall potential. Not the perfect way, but the best possible way.
The point that olio and others are trying to make that you still fail to (or refuse to) see, is that only a handful of players are willing to keep driving until they've reached their limit. You're basically saying drivers who aren't willing to do so aren't relevant to this discussion, but the undeniable fact is that they're the vast majority of players. So, is a (r/w)anking that (r/w)anks only a handful of players better than one that ranks everyone? I think not.

Whiplash wrote:You're looking on wanking like on jerking or something. Wanking is the most serious way of competing. There is no better way to increase your speed, there is no better way to learn the cars, tricks and all other stuff. Putting the car to its limits is unbeatable way of practising.
All the best wankers are the most faster drivers. They didn't get their skill by playing races, they got their skill mostly by wanking! You can play FC for a years, but you ll never be better there than some wanker. The same rule works with all other racing competitions.
Yeah, we get it, wanking is the best way to improve your skills. So tell me this, why can the number of top drivers be counted on one hand? Hint: you can find the answer earlier in this post.

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:11 pm

Tijny wrote:The point that olio and others are trying to make that you still fail to (or refuse to) see, is that only a handful of players are willing to keep driving until they've reached their limit.

Nah, I'm saying that only players who wank a lot are able to be top drivers. Activity based on getting results is not the same as activity based on getting your limits. The only ranking that gives you both is Wanking ranking. Sure, you could try to get your limits in races too, but that's not practical (so, also not relevant) enough. It's not that easy to put drivers to the same conditions. And the worst thing is that we can't have more then 20 players there.

Tijny wrote:Yeah, we get it, wanking is the best way to improve your skills. So tell me this, why can the number of top drivers be counted on one hand? Hint: you can find the answer earlier in this post.

Well, as I know It's the truth that we don't have many top players, but it's also the truth that ranking will show that truth. And what's bad about objective picture? Even now, ranking shows that truth. But last time drivers were not motivated enough. I think that they will be much more active this time because of cool scripting you did. Ones we got many drivers competing, it will be more challenging to play it in all next time. So, the ranking will be more preciser.
We just need to motivate them to play. Scripts will do the biggest part for sure. There is no any good ranking if you don't have motivated drivers. That's the hardest thing. But at least it's the easier to do with this ranking. It has many advantages: scripts for live times, number of players is unlimited, nobody can't miss the race (he can always send the video), we all drive under the same conditions.
Sure, one of the condition is motivation, but I can't count that. If you want to get good time, you have to want that. That's the main rule I guess.
And it's much easier to lose your motivation with all other competitions than with Wanking. It's impossible to drive all races, be in a mood all the time, have good connection all the time etc. Wanking is the only competition that doesn't ask you for all that.
Last edited by Whiplash on Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:40 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:18 pm

Del wrote:If you really want to rank players according to their ability to drive a single fast lap why not organise a series of cups with 20-lap ghost mode races? Make sure they're on different days of the week and times of the day and keep the event shortish (max 1 hour) so everyone can participate. Just make sure everyone only gets 20 laps of the unreleased tracks and give points according to the best lap time. Maybe eliminate best and worst results and calculate the average and you have a pretty good idea of who can drive the best lap of an unreleased track in 20 laps. Repeat for 30 and 40 and 78 laps obviously.

Do I really have to say directly that you're stupid? I would like to have cup every hour, but is it really possible?! You're speaking about things that's impossible to do. It's impossible to free us of lags either. And even we make that shit, how many people can participate? 20. That's patetic.
EDIT: damn, i didn't want to make new post to comment this crap.

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 12:28 pm

Del wrote:You would host exactly the same cup several times so all players can participate. In case you didn't read my previous post: You won't get an objective ranking if some people drive thousands of laps and some only have time to do 20.

Who don't have time for few sick laps? Then he will have time for racing even harder.
You can wank whenever you want to, but you can't participate in a cup whenever you want to. It's much much easier to find free time for driving many laps, then find it for many cups. Also, you will need 100 admins to organize and handle that. Here you ll need 1 guy to set it all up and 0 admins to handle that. Why you're so stupid men?

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