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Discussion related to Turbo Sliders and beta version feedback.

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Whiplash
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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 1:41 pm

Del wrote:
Well if it's so f*** easy why can't you set up the server? [/quote]
I don't have access to the site editing. Also, I don't have ability and knowledge to do it. If I knew it's hard for moderators, I wouldn't ask all that from dede. There's nothing new to do.
Del wrote:The point was that if there is competition involved and if you want to find out who can drive a single fast lap in as equal as possible conditions (requisite for a fair ranking) the number of laps/time should be limited so that everyone can get the equal opportunity.

Oh no. all reiroms sentences. It's impossible to make it equal with limited laps. There will be always people who would practise before and then just join with superb preparation. So, the only way to have the same opportunity is to give unlimited number of laps.


TO ALL:
Anyway, maybe we have misunderstanding here about base things. This ranking will not be here just for one cup. It will be there for all next time. We will pick just about 10 tracks (1 track per week). There will not be winners and losers; there will be only players ranked from 1st to xth position. It's not just a regular competition that gives us winners. It will give us informations about speed of all community drivers (at least it should do it). How good those informations will be depends by all drivers motivation. After we drove one track, we will put the next one etc. If somebody miss some track(s), he can send his videos, or he can wait for a next round (after all tracks are played). So, this is not a competition that has his end. IT NEVER ENDS! Drivers will always be able to improve their times. At least I imagined it like that.



Should we hold the same tracks, or pick the new ones? Maybe we should look for all cool tracks in the track base and make a list of them for voting?

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Mike Nike
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Post by Mike Nike » Thu Jul 14, 2011 2:56 pm

Whiplash wrote:Should we hold the same tracks, or pick the new ones? Maybe we should look for all cool tracks in the track base and make a list of them for voting?


well..i started an xls list, like before my hard disc crash...
where i put notes which tracks have traps, which have a too high luckfactor, which are wankable 2 laps in a row...
and laptime infos to see how long the track is

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 3:08 pm

Del wrote:Unreleased/unscheduled tracks. Open a server for 2 hours with an unannounced track every week. Let everyone drive a 20-lap race and note down their fastest laps.

How many times I need to write the same things??? Some drivers would practise whole day before that 2 hours cup, some drivers would not even be able to join because of some busyness etc. Just stop writing shits pls.

Mike Nike wrote:well..i started an xls list, like before my hard disc crash...
where i put notes which tracks have traps, which have a too high luckfactor, which are wankable 2 laps in a row...
and laptime infos to see how long the track is

Cool! It's probably hard to find tracks which are wankable 2 laps in a row with all cars, but that info could still be pretty useful even we shouldn't take those tracks only acceptable. It's nothing bad if you have to miss one lap especially with short tracks.
After dede says that server is ready, you could make new topic with poll and list of cool tracks. We all could search for some and add them on that list too.

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Post by Mike Nike » Thu Jul 14, 2011 4:19 pm

Whiplash wrote:After dede says that server is ready, you could make new topic with poll and list of cool tracks. We all could search for some and add them on that list too.


hmm...i dont think people fill a poll of 100+ tracks in a forum, except a few wankers maybe..
i actually kinda planned, if i need a poll, to do a similar thing like last time...
asking after each race something like
"PLEASE VOTE LAST TRACK (0 to 9): 0 = bad / 9 = good to hunt laprecords on it, with RDP-Antislider"

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:28 pm

Del wrote:How many times must I say that it's not equal if everyone can't drive the same amount of laps because of work, school, whatever? How many times must I say that with unlimited laps luck plays too big a role?

If someone is busy with school, work, whatever...then he can't be a good driver. Michael Schumacher would be also a bad driver if he must go to school every day during the championships. :P
If you have whole year to play (and whenever you want during that year), it's impossible not to have enough free time. This kind of competition gives you whole time of the world. If you still can't find some free time, then just stop to playing the game, go to school and sleep there.

Mike Nike wrote:hmm...i dont think people fill a poll of 100+ tracks in a forum, except a few wankers maybe..
i actually kinda planned, if i need a poll, to do a similar thing like last time...
asking after each race something like
"PLEASE VOTE LAST TRACK (0 to 9): 0 = bad / 9 = good to hunt laprecords on it, with RDP-Antislider"

I thought you got many non-FC tracks too. Well, you could pick the best 20 by your own taste. I'm sure we will all agree with your choices. There should be 20% short tracks, 20% long and 60% normal tracks. 9, 10, or 12 tracks.

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Post by dede » Thu Jul 14, 2011 5:48 pm

First of all, let's not insult eachothers once we have set a nice discussion. Everybody's giving good arguments from different points of view, nobody's being childish, so let's avoid insults.

Wanking is a way to increase players skills, that's true. But usually what makes you improve your time obtained in first 20 laps by 0.2 is just track knowledge, not skills related to car-knowledge. And that works for everybody, noobs and top players. The more skills you have, the less you will improve your time by wanking several laps.
We could make a try, if you wish. I organize a IHLC, we take the results and then we wank a specific car for a big amount of laps. Then compare improvements between players who got different skills.

What makes you skilled, in my opinion, is car & game knowledge. IHLC tells you who's the best at driving sick lines because of track interpretation, not because of training: I can drive Speeder (more or less) as fast as Tijny in wanking, but just because I learn track limits. My ability with Speeder is clearly worse than Tijny's.

About the "anybody can find some time for wanking, since it's possible to wank whenever we want"-topic, I agree with you. Or agreed. When you don't have enough time to play the game (I used to have 14 hours/day of free time, now I have only 4-5 hours), you will have to choose what to play. And in my case, PunaBall and other fun multiplayer things come before than that.

Wanking is something that requires dedication & a lot of time. The more you wank, the more you lose motivation because of harder improvements. I will show you, as soon as I manage to set up the server, that players will lose interest with time.

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:33 pm

I know, I could agree with all you say man, but I really have many other intentions with the ranking then we discussed.
I would like to motivate all drivers enough to drive and compete in such a specific manner.
For instance, now we have nice data base for tracks, cars etc. I thought, why not to have one nice data base for all players. I know, there is already PLAYERS tab with our names, but names are not enough. It will be cool if all (in the best case) community players would drive to their limits. We will have nice long list of all drivers to see what's the potential of each of them. There will be grades for each car which will be useful and fun to watch.
Also, that server will be place for people who are bored while there is nobody online. They will be able to drive challenging and cool competition even they're alone. Wanking server guarantees activity for 24 hours per day. You will not say anymore that nothing is happening on the master server. :wink:
About losing motivation...hmm, I'm not that sure. Maybe only if you really get top 2-3 times with a bad feeling that it's the sickest possible you can. But after some time, it's just impossible not to get in the mood to put in the next gear. :twisted:
I can't agree only with one little thing: I think that you can't get T with Speeder during the wanking. :P

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:51 pm

Del wrote:So if you want to rank players according to skill why do you keep banging on about unlimited laps? Sure you can have a wanking server (though I'd rather you wouldn't as I don't want the small community to spread too thinly) but ranking should not have unlimited laps because then it would be a contest of who has the most time available among similarly skilled players.

You're speaking like Dide Dide once. You totally have wrong image of wanking in your head. Dide thought the same: "I could beat any of records with 200 laps"! After I gave him unlimited number of laps - he hardly managed to get 9th place.
Here. And many drivers above him didn't even wanked seriously. Some of them probably drove less than 50 laps.

So, unlimited number of laps means nothing. That will still not make any luck for any driver. Unlimited laps will not help to anyone.
Last edited by Whiplash on Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Dide Dide » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:52 pm

Wanking is nice thing, i like it , but for a certain moment, i wouldnt be happy to spend most of my day driving a specified car, or just racing with others. I just like to play this and that, i would be happy by playing some Puna Matches, (Xbumpz)ing, playing F1, and Driving(race or Wank) AntiSlider, the true thing is that u! if u spend so many time wanking sooner or later u will get tired and start p
Most of us like to race Full Contact, especially driving fast when there are many players involved.

Wanking gives some skill : True
Wanking reduces the ammount of time to get a lucky Lap : True
Playing other Mods increase your Skill : True

You can be skillfull like Mike :

Like Reirom once said : Mike Nike is a 1 lap man :D


The only thing i must be thinking is how dede keeps Constant Lap times...

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 6:57 pm

Dide Dide wrote:Like Reirom once said : Mike Nike is a 1 lap man :D
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Dide Dide wrote:The only thing i must be thinking is how dede keeps Constant Lap times...

The only answer is: He wanks a lot! And he's talented.:)

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Post by Dide Dide » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:02 pm

Whiplash wrote:
Del wrote:So if you want to rank players according to skill why do you keep banging on about unlimited laps? Sure you can have a wanking server (though I'd rather you wouldn't as I don't want the small community to spread too thinly) but ranking should not have unlimited laps because then it would be a contest of who has the most time available among similarly skilled players.

You're speaking like Dide Dide once. You totally have wrong image of wanking in your head. Dide thought the same: "I could beat any of records with 200 laps"! After I gave him unlimited number of laps - he hardly managed to get 9th place.
Here. And many drivers above him didn't even wanked seriously. Some of them probably drove less than 50 laps.

So, unlimited number of laps means nothing. That will still not make any luck for any driver. Unlimited laps will not help to anyone.


I wanked 500 laps :D But not in day, someday when i had time about 1 week. So far they laps where quite tied and my corners *especially when i come from turns*.
The True thing is that i even didnt expect to get top 30 pretty fast :) but i see more line to improve now.
And less than 200 from the rec man. with time i will improve :D
Last edited by Dide Dide on Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Dide Dide » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:15 pm

Nice, Del, i see that the players bolded can beat my time but i still cant be their time too :D apart from Janne, SilCir maybe Mikko too.

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Post by Tijny » Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:46 pm

Del wrote:I rank at least the bolded players' driving ability higher than that of Dide's yet Dide is ahead of them in the ranking.
I find it funny that you left out Etana, Peto! and colt, who were absolute top drivers in their day. :D Ironically enough they weren't really wankers either.

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Post by dede » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:20 pm

Tijny wrote:I find it funny that you left out Etana, Peto! and colt, who were absolute top drivers in their day. :D Ironically enough they weren't really wankers either.

Ahah, I was thinking the same when reading that quote :D Top players indeed, but also unknown to new guys like Del :)

Anyway, I DO believe that it's all a matter of laps. Put on a money prize for additional motivation, pick the hardest record ever driven in TS (and by "driven" I mean "not cheated" - there are cheated records), start the challange. I believe that some top player will be able to break it.

Btw, Tijny has better skills with Speeder, but when it comes to wanking every top player is at the same level. More skills mean more possibility to drive the "lucky lap" sooner, but in long terms it'll be just a 0.00x difference. I believe Tijny can confirm this.

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 8:48 pm

dede wrote:I believe Tijny can confirm this.

I can confirm that too. But you need to know that we will have more then 1 track there. And it will be hard for you to be constant on all those tracks there even with many laps. I think that you'll give up sooner or later. :wink: Otherwise, if you take lot of time and beat most of his records, you will probably become a better driver with it and there is nothing to complain about. But I'm pretty sure that T will not let it to you that easily. Your records will motivate him for sure.

Del wrote:Do you want this to happen in your ranking? Limited laps would help. I never said I would get 1st even if I did thousands of laps. Just that I would be bound to get a better lap than someone close to my skill level like Sejtan if he did much fewer laps.

Of course, I don't expect that situation this time. That's why we need to motivate players to play it. dede could make one nice promotion of it on the home page that will be there whole time and inform people that ranking is something cool and challenging to play. Just wait and you'll see all your mistakes. :wink:
And listen, if Sejtan make better time then you can even with more laps, that means that he's faster, and you can't complain about it. You can just take him down with your wanking, or just confess that you suck compared to him.
Also, there are many other things that could be done to make drivers more motivated. For example, including skill classes. But, that needs some programming that dede isn't ready to do.
Last edited by Whiplash on Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by dede » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:05 pm

Whiplash wrote:I can confirm that too. But you need to know that we will have more then 1 track there. And it will be hard for you to be constant on all those tracks there even with many laps. I think that you'll give up sooner or later.

So what's the point, really? Unlimited number of laps means that people will never give up. They will ideally keep battling for the record forever. Top players will probably set several 0.00x laptimes close to the record. If that does NOT happen, it means that they DID give up and so the ranking doesn't show real skills!

Unlimited laps = more possibility to get to the limit = less difference between classes and skills = useless?

If you want to see your real skills and compare them to your opponents (and/or to see your progresses), isn't it better to consider IHLC-style results
in long term? Take away all variables such as playing online etc.. Release the track, allow offline wanking and give a short deadline. You will get realistic results without spending 24h/day of useless wanking.

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Post by Whiplash » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:13 pm

dede wrote:So what's the point, really? Unlimited number of laps means that people will never give up. They will ideally keep battling for the record forever. Top players will probably set several 0.00x laptimes close to the record. If that does NOT happen, it means that they DID give up and so the ranking doesn't show real skills!
Unlimited laps = more possibility to get to the limit = less difference between classes and skills = useless?

Nah, that's impossible to be happened. There will be infos about date too. We can watch those informations too.
But also, if we get 3 players with the same times and dates """somehow""", what will you expect on IHLC??? I would expect that any of them can win. So, the ranking is very useful. :P
Please, just don't take the ranking as a usual racing. It will just show our potential. :wink:
dede wrote:You will get realistic results without spending 24h/day of useless wanking.

And you will still not be able to say that it's 100% true. :P

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Post by dede » Thu Jul 14, 2011 9:46 pm

Whiplash wrote:There will be infos about date too.

What??? Date is nonsense, since any player can wank whenever he wants and without limits. If I drive the record in 2005 and you drive as fast as me in 2012, it's exactly the same time and same skill involved. The fact that I drove it before you doesn't mean that I'm better than you. It means only that I drove before than you, but our laps are the same. And it's nonsense to care about HOW many laps we drove either.

Whiplash wrote:
dede wrote:You will get realistic results without spending 24h/day of useless wanking.

And you will still not be able to say that it's 100% true. :P

Nothing can be 100% true, so it's about finding the nearest value. The nearest you can get, in my opinion, is to allow only the luck-factor. All drivers with same laps, no lag, no ghost irritation etc. One track, one car. 0.03x difference is the luck factor. That's all ;)

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Post by Mike Nike » Thu Jul 14, 2011 10:21 pm

dede wrote:Release the track, allow offline wanking and give a short deadline.


yay ;)

well...i think more and more about different live statistics for an own server..
including, of course, the voting scripts at cupstart, so people can vote xb, rdp cup, hotlapcup etc.
also including something like if 5 players are on and 3 vote hotlapcup 2 vote rdp-cup, then the voting weight of players will be so balanced, that if these 5 players drive 5 cups in a row and vote in the same way each time, there will be driven 3 hotlapcups and 2 rdp-cups instead of 5 hotlapcups.



offtopic

dede wrote:One track, one car. 0.03x difference is the luck factor. That's all ;)


hmm, interesting...
remembers me to something i worked on in sliders or some other racing game a while ago
it could be a nice task to study the luck factor / variance for certain tracks with 1 special car...where a track will be defined more or less as a number of curve-types or curve-combination-types put in a row.
with antislider type of cars, it might be way easier to calculate...because you dont have to take so much care on loosing grip, like with spinner for example

so...datas/parameters:
- nr of laps
- curve-combinations data
- concentration level or focus level
- ability to drive curves with braking included

concentration means in this case something similar like reaction/timing:

%chance to hit the curve 99% perfectly (99% = if a combi takes 1.000 sec, 99% = the car takes 1.010 sec)

some curves are so easy that the chance to hit it less than 80% perfectly is smaller than 0.01%

the ability to drive curves with braking included is split into a couple of abilities to drive special curve-combinations with different lengths of braking times and into braking parts, where you have to steer and where you dont have to or shouldnt.
in addition to that, some keyboards/keyboard-settings dont even allow the "accel+brake+steer at the same time"-possibility for 1 or even both steer directions.
hmm...delicious task

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