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Discussion related to Turbo Sliders and beta version feedback.

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Whiplash
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Post by Whiplash » Fri Jul 15, 2011 9:26 am

dede wrote:What??? Date is nonsense, since any player can wank whenever he wants and without limits. If I drive the record in 2005 and you drive as fast as me in 2012, it's exactly the same time and same skill involved. The fact that I drove it before you doesn't mean that I'm better than you. It means only that I drove before than you, but our laps are the same.

No, I didn't mean that. I thought that analysing the dates could show you somebodies shape. Sure, that could not be totally true too, but can be useful. Player with 2005 rec will be probably slower that player with 2012 rec in some race that they drove in 2012 year. But anyway, 2005 rec from that player can still show you his potential. You can see that he's able to drive fast, but you ll not take it too serious.
dede wrote:And it's nonsense to care about HOW many laps we drove either.

I already agreed with that. Many laps builds your skill too, so there is nothing to complain about.


dede wrote:Nothing can be 100% true, so it's about finding the nearest value. The nearest you can get, in my opinion, is to allow only the luck-factor. All drivers with same laps, no lag, no ghost irritation etc. One track, one car. 0.03x difference is the luck factor. That's all ;)

Sure! I never denied that. If somebody wants to see who's the best driver, he need to know that he 'll not be able to find that information.
If somebody wants that this ranking be useful and relevant for him, then he needs to know how read it. If you see that someone is 5th and someone is 6th with just a little gap, then you can't be stupid and say that 5th is 100% faster then 6th. You will be careful with that.
Also, you always forgetting that we don't have 1 little track there. We will have maybe 12 tracks, and nobody can be lucky on 12 different tracks. If the times were similar on all of them for 2 drivers, smart viewer would not say that first one is faster for sure. He will just conclude that those 2 drivers have pretty similar potential.

Del wrote:Let's take players A and B who are always fighting each other in every race. They're equally skilled. When they get on a wanking server they drive every lap within .0x of each other. B (player B, not Badneed off course) wanks for 75 laps and has to leave for work but A continues for another 75 laps. In the end A is .242 faster than B. The next day they participate in an Anti league race (the wank car was Anti too) and again fight the whole race. A is not more skilled or faster than B. He just acquired more track knowledge and/or managed to do a very risky lap, something which both of them had been trying to do for the last 50 laps of B's wank. I wouldn't say A is better though in your ranking he could be much higher than B.

Man, you need to read my posts if you want to discuss with me.
If player A and player B are equal in FC. Then player A make better times on ranking (by billion laps) then player B (because player B didn't play enough for some reason), then it's impossible to say that they're still equal drivers! Player A wanked bilion laps, he got a skill, and he's faster now. Next time when they come to FC, A will destroy B like a shit. And there is nothing to complain about.
For example, when I just came on this community, Etana were one of the sickest drivers in my ayes. I couldn't even touch him during the FC races. But after some time that I used to wank a billions laps, he couldn't even fallow me properly in FC.
So, you can't complain that someone drives billions laps, because he don't do that for nothing, he's becoming faster while doing that.
And one more thing, you can't compare 2 drivers if one of them don't want to compete. You can't get better time just by driving 5 laps. That's the rule for all cups.
Otherwise I could say: Oh dede won the race. That's not fair. My father didn't drive that race because he has a job. :P

Quote on Mike:...
That would be cool to play, but I don't think that you would go farther with that. It's just impossible to include all parameters. It's even not possible to discover all things that affect on our driving. But as I said, ranking is the most practical for all of us. And you'll see, it's pretty precise too. We only need to know how to read all its informations properly. There is no way to be sure who's the best driver, so this ranking will not be an exception. But if you read it carefully, you will be satisfied.
I'm sure, even if you make some contest which you mean that is more relevant, it will not show any different results then wanking ranking. You will only destroy yourself by trying to script and handle it all. But as I said, I would like to play it cause it seems fun. :wink:


TO ALL:
Ok, I ll start with collection of tracks. It will be the best if we all suggest 2-3 tracks that we like. If someone don't like any of selected tracks for some reason, then he should just say it. I'll put all your desired tracks to first post to be more visible.

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Whiplash
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Post by Whiplash » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:25 am

Del wrote:ID_Random. J_PerfectLine. VPA_Beam.

Not funny.

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Mike Nike
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Post by Mike Nike » Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:54 pm

Whiplash wrote:1)That would be cool to play, but I don't think that you would go farther with that. It's just impossible to include all parameters. It's even not possible to discover all things that affect on our driving.

2)I'm sure, even if you make some contest which you mean that is more relevant, it will not show any different results then wanking ranking.

3) You will only destroy yourself by trying to script and handle it all.

4)
Ok, I ll start with collection of tracks.


1) challenge...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cfsU6GuMz08
accepted^^ *barney stinson ftw*
i made an excel list for live poker tells once lol...so many things, which influence peoples behaviour, i could study my whole life :D
at least 100 different tells, which you can combine together and which can mean different things in different situations...and i listed ~160 basic situations
...sure, i wont discover all things that affect on our driving, but you can categorize them that way, that everything has a somewhat acceptable influence value (the undiscovered things will be put to a guessed %chance and a guessed %influence).
to name for example one type of for some people maybe unusual distraction which influences race behaviour is the illusion that somebody just wrote a chatline. in some track, i think 15.322+- with rdp-antislider i see at some point of the track a certain zone of the screen in a certain color, that my brain thinks: "oh, did somebody just typed something in chat upper left corner?", even i know i drive local and its impossible..the experience just tells the brain the indicators and you can do only a few little things against it, to not fk up every few laps due to this distraction^^

2) well..some people might take part there way more often or more likely than on alltime-ranking-wanking thingies..where you have to drive 1000+ laps

3) i might invest a lot of time if i write it in php and mysql..and a lot more if i build a webpage, similar like thedude..
but else - if i am motivated i can write much in short time, with the right programming language and it makes fun :)
i already made an own autoserver running! :D
im still searching for the right languages to write tools/scripts

4)
hmm...what i could do is put a lot of tracks on the server, create a voting script and let people vote after races and let tracks add randomly at cupstarts based on little random+votes.
though im not sure about the final formula...
if 1 cup = 1 track and there are 3 tracks in a pack, with trackvotefactors 7.0, 5.0 and 3.0...if in 15 cups track 1 will be driven 7 times in average, the others 5 and 3 times...or if it will/should be more or less than 7 times for track 1...probably it should be less
also, just 2 votes of 9 and 7 wont immediately result into 8 pts then...
i probably add x or xy% blind votes of 5.0 to the trackvotefactor

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Whiplash
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Post by Whiplash » Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:54 pm

Mike Nike wrote:1)...the illusion that somebody just wrote a chatline. in some track, i think 15.322+- with rdp-antislider i see at some point of the track a certain zone of the screen in a certain color, that my brain thinks: "oh, did somebody just typed something in chat upper left corner?", even i know i drive local and its impossible..the experience just tells the brain the indicators and you can do only a few little things against it, to not fk up every few laps due to this distraction^^

Holly shit, I thought that I'm the only guy who got that problem. It's good to finally know that it's nothing wrong with me. :lol:

Mike Nike wrote:2) well..some people might take part there way more often or more likely than on alltime-ranking-wanking thingies..where you have to drive 1000+ laps

Hmm, I'm not actually sure that you 'll have advantages in that part. But I'll give you a chance. :wink:

Mike Nike wrote:3) i might invest a lot of time if i write it in php and mysql..and a lot more if i build a webpage, similar like thedude..
but else - if i am motivated i can write much in short time, with the right programming language and it makes fun :)
i already made an own autoserver running! :D
im still searching for the right languages to write tools/scripts

I'm afraid that Wanking ranking will still be more reliable.

Mike Nike wrote:4)hmm...what i could do is put a lot of tracks on the server, create a voting script and let people vote after races and let tracks add randomly at cupstarts based on little random+votes.
though im not sure about the final formula...
if 1 cup = 1 track and there are 3 tracks in a pack, with trackvotefactors 7.0, 5.0 and 3.0...if in 15 cups track 1 will be driven 7 times in average, the others 5 and 3 times...or if it will/should be more or less than 7 times for track 1...probably it should be less
also, just 2 votes of 9 and 7 wont immediately result into 8 pts then...
i probably add x or xy% blind votes of 5.0 to the trackvotefactor

Hmm, I know that those informations could be very useful, but there are few problems I noticed:
-It will probably take too much time.
-We need to be careful while selecting tracks. It's not just about liking and not liking. We need to get good variance af tracks: long, short, tight curves, wide curves, narrow curves, round curves, jumps, no jumps, dirty tracks, clean tracks etc.
-Sure it's perfect if people like them a lot too, but that's not that important. It's much better just to get nice varied package.
-Also, all players will probably give a vote to track that is good to race on. That's not that important too. We need a track pack that will allow us a nice and varied types of driving.

So, it's probably much easier just to manually analyse the default tracks database, and just pick good examples. You can suggest many tracks if you want and then we will make final selection of the most suitable ones.
Last edited by Whiplash on Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Whiplash
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Post by Whiplash » Fri Jul 15, 2011 6:53 pm

Del wrote:You seem to be suggesting that with Anti, you're better at least on that track than Mike, Tinjy and dede, and that Hevonen, Dide, tikru and Jormeli among others are better than Janne.

Unless you can find a way to motivate all the players to wank a lot, and that you won't short of 30% of their salary (though even then some would just be unable to do it) and I doubt you're willing to invest that much, limited laps/time wanking is a much more relevant way to rank players in the order of their current potential. And there is no more relevant wanking ranking than that.

You're still trying to avoid using your brain. You came to community 1 year too late to understand how that ranking was organized and how it worked. It will not be like that this time. Last time, It was part of the Dark International Tournament (DIT) which means that nobody could see his place until dede publish all results in the same time. They had 1 month to wank on one single track and then they sent their videos. Also, there was a useless server that allowed only 12 laps (if I remember) in a row for live wanking. Many drivers played only on that server (you can recognize them by not bold lap times). That server was there for no any rational reason. That's why almost whole ranking suck right now, so you can't look for examples on it at all.
I made better lap time just because T, Mike, dede and others wanked during the DIT, so they couldn't know how exactly good their lap times are.
I have whole preview of their lap times later, so I wanked bilions laps to catch them. Notice: we didn't wanked under the same conditions.
This time it will be different.
Also, if you analyse dede's, Nard's non-bold lap times, you will notice that some of them are even better than my bold times, which means that they even managed to drive better laps than me with just 12 laps in a row while I was playing billions laps (50-100 in a row).
Janne and many others didn't even play there. You can't use their lap times as examples.
If T, Mike, dede knew that I have that time, they would probably drove more sick ones easily. That would happen this time. Now, they will have preview of all lap times, so they will easier see their limits.
That's why you cant look on that ranking yet. That ranking showes nothing now. Only 3 drivers drove all tracks, and dede didn't even wanked offline which is much better because the server was really badly setted up.
Otherwise, what am I talking whole these years? Why would I ask whole the time for refreshing and reorganizing the ranking? There is just one answer: that old ranking sucks.
But I'm 100% sure that it has the best point system. It should be just organized better and we are doing it now.
Last edited by Whiplash on Sat Jul 16, 2011 3:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Mike Nike
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Post by Mike Nike » Fri Aug 05, 2011 2:33 pm

wtf
it didnt took me long to see the ts related lines were written by me.
but i think i or the forum got hacked then...(the 2nd likely)
i didnt log in as yingchun and neither i posted spam urls.
i think my post got "edited" later by a hacker.

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