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Possible rotation directions (rot-images) from 64 to 360

Discussion related to Turbo Sliders and beta version feedback.

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Whiplash

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Possible rotation directions (rot-images) from 64 to 360

PostWed Feb 29, 2012 3:16 pm

O.K. I opened this topic to avoid spamming in other ones.

The discussion started HERE.

Del wrote:1. There can't be more than 1 perfect angle (on a straight anyway).
2. 360 images still don't guarantee that you can hit the perfect angle.
3. Here's a 5-pixel wide red line rotated 1 degree counterclockwise on an 8x200 black background. As you can see, the red line is not in line with the background. Let's say the green line in this picture is the track edge; on the left you have grass and on the right you have tarmac. The yellow line you can barely see at the very top and bottom of the picture is the centre of the red line. This decides if the car is on the grass or tarmac (like the pat of a TS car). Even with only 1 degree of rotation you can still go on the grass. You can't miss 1 direction, let alone 6.

The point of the F1 car that turns 6 times as fast was to illustrate the difficulty of hitting just the right degree of rotation as would be required with these cars. If you can find the perfect rotation from the 64 possible when the car turns 6 times as fast you can hit the perfect rotation with 360 images.

You are totally out of point...like always huahuehau :P
It's not about how hard is to hit perfect angle, it's about having possibility to even hit it. If you're good driver, you don't have a problem at all. But now, even pro players can't drive on perfect driving line cause sometimes they don't have it in theory.
HERE is one simple example (one of billion). Just use F1 car and try to drive trough that straight without correction to avoid touching the grass.
Even I could press my key that softly to get a more "suitable" angle, I still can't because the f*** game doesn't let me that. So, it's not hard, it's just impossible.
Your images show that it's almost impossible to hit perfect angle. Let's don't speak about "perfect" angle, let's speak about "suitable" angle. Sure, you will always probably miss the "perfect" angle, but if you have 360 rotation directions to pick, you will still stay on the track without any correction.
Your examples are wrong cause you considered that you start driving trough the straight just from the edge of the track, but that never happens in reality of the game; we always start driving trough the straight from inside of the track. :wink:
Sure, if some straight is 2km long, than even with 360 directions you will have to make some correction. But we don't have such a long straights.
So, that's the problem, now you need to make corrections even on pretty short straights like that one on TSE_Cajares that I showed you up there. Story finished.

Pingu wrote:Stop arguing with that Whiplash, he even suggested to make the turboslider cars not turning if you weren't moving lol. Things like that are the fundamentals of turbosliders.

:) Well, at least it should be tested. I played many other games and it felt much better in racing. Developer could make it optional to keep old fashion moving too. :wink: I'm not sure either how good will it be in TS, but in GeneRally (3D game) it's pretty cool. It gives some kind of naturality to the game. Puna, for example, would be ruined by that. That's why old kind of moving should be kept. :wink:
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Del

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Re: Possible rotation directions (rot-images) from 64 to 360

PostWed Feb 29, 2012 4:15 pm

In my opinion it's better to be able to just leave the car going straight on the straights which are perfectly vertical/horizontal/one of the 64 angles (which most F1 tracks (or pretty close) and probably over 99% of other tracks have) than having the possibility to adjust to those which aren't at the cost of it being much harder to get the car going perfectly straight on those straights which are one of the 64 (majority).
Whiplash wrote:Your examples are wrong cause you considered that you start driving trough the straight just from the edge of the track, but that never happens in reality of the game; we always start driving trough the straight from inside of the track.

Heu?
Whiplash wrote:Puna, for example, would be ruined by that.

Why?
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Whiplash

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Re: Possible rotation directions (rot-images) from 64 to 360

PostWed Feb 29, 2012 5:42 pm

Del wrote:In my opinion it's better to be able to just leave the car going straight on the straights which are perfectly vertical/horizontal/one of the 64 angles (which most F1 tracks (or pretty close) and probably over 99% of other tracks have) than having the possibility to adjust to those which aren't at the cost of it being much harder to get the car going perfectly straight on those straights which are one of the 64 (majority).

HUAHUEHAUHU That's your problem. You're favorizing vertical and horizontal straights even 80% of all straights are not like them. Having 360 directions to go, you will be able to go easily on 100% of all straights without any corrections. Did you played TSE_Cajares? huehuahu

Heu!
Heu?

Del wrote:
Whiplash wrote:Puna, for example, would be ruined by that.

Why?

That suggestion is not something that should be discussed here. That's another topic.
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Re: Possible rotation directions (rot-images) from 64 to 360

PostWed Feb 29, 2012 6:01 pm

Whiplash wrote:
Del wrote:In my opinion it's better to be able to just leave the car going straight on the straights which are perfectly vertical/horizontal/one of the 64 angles...

You're favorizing vertical and horizontal straights even 80% of all straights are not like them.

I'd say most of the (long) straights on F1 tracks are close enough to one of the 64 angles to not need corrective steering. I'd also say that I value the peace of mind of knowing where the car is going (rather than finding myself on the grass after I thought I was perfectly aligned with the straight and was in fact one degree off (could you tell the difference between the the lefternmost cars in real TS size?)) over being able to drive the perfect line in Turbo Sliders (an arcade game) on special occasions.
Whiplash wrote:
Del wrote:
Whiplash wrote:Puna, for example, would be ruined by that.

Why?

That suggestion is not something that should be discussed here. That's another topic.

You brought it up in this thread and I'd quite like to hear why you think more precise turning wouldn't work in puna.


Allso: Wippestyle?
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Augusto

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PostWed Feb 29, 2012 6:23 pm

it is fun to watch you discuss :P ... i think you both are correct in some points and wrong in some others....

so, to make it fair, what would you say about having 128 rot images instead of 64.. that should give the posibility to adjust the car angle to track angle, dont you agree??
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Mike Nike

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PostWed Feb 29, 2012 10:38 pm

i probably just read 3 lines, but i feel like i have to make you guys keep on fighting just to post some more fun-pics^^
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Whiplash

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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 3:18 pm

Del wrote:could you tell the difference between the the lefternmost cars in real TS size?

huahuheuahu wrong logic again. I don't see the difference, so there will not be difference while driving too. Car will always go in direction that you picked. Did you ever play any other game except TS? huahuehau

Whiplash wrote:Puna, for example, would be ruined by that.

Del wrote:Why?

Whiplash wrote:That suggestion is not something that should be discussed here. That's another topic.

Del wrote:You brought it up in this thread and I'd quite like to hear why you think more precise turning wouldn't work in puna.

Oh, what a stupid kid. Read better all posts. That's Pingu's comment, which is not about precise moving. You can find what it is about in suggestion topic.

Augusto wrote:so, to make it fair, what would you say about having 128 rot images instead of 64.. that should give the posibility to adjust the car angle to track angle, dont you agree??

Nope, that would not solve the problem completely, but probably it would be a little better in some cases. Believe me, I already played many top-down racing games (2D and 3D) and 360 images will be the most common (if not more than that).

Mike Nike wrote:i probably just read 3 lines, but i feel like i have to make you guys keep on fighting just to post some more fun-pics^^

:)
Track: TSE_Cajares

Situation now (64 images)
Perfect situation (360 images)
Perfection in Del's brain (4 images)

See, Del doesn't want to be confused. He need easily to know what is up-down-left-right. Any other direction just confuses his little brain.
This is your game Del:
huahuehhau
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Del

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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 4:25 pm

Whiplash wrote:
Del wrote:could you tell the difference between the the lefternmost cars in real TS size?

huahuheuahu wrong logic again. I don't see the difference, so there will not be difference while driving too. Car will always go in direction that you picked. Did you ever play any other game except TS? huahuehau

It would go in the direction it points. You can actually try a car like this to illustrate the difficult of finding the perfect rotation:
Code: Select all
Car
TSE-F1 360 edition
  description 1
     I'm a Wippe?
  antislide 7
  acceleration 89
  enginefriction 0.0
  viscosity 0.25
  nonslidesector 0.4
  slidebraking 40
  slidedeceleration 40
  braking 118
  steering 10
  elasticity 0.5
  grip 600
  weight 300
  mask TSE-F1-pat.png 0 0 32 32
  rotimage TSE-F1-img.png 0 0 2048 32 2 
  tire 11.5 22.0
  tire 20.5 22.0
  enginesample TSE-F1.wav
End

Put that in TS/cars/ as f1360.car or something and try to go straight on a track like Morlund (start/finish straight). It's not impossible to find the perfect rotation like that but there's one major difference: you actually notice if you're not going straight; it won't suddenly jump 1 pixel and to the grass.

Whiplash wrote:Read better all posts. That's Pingu's comment, which is not about precise moving. You can find what it is about in suggestion topic.

I thought your comment was about the rotimages. And it's not only my reading comprehension that needs work; sometimes your posts are needlessly difficult to understand (though in the case I probably just didn't read the quote from Pingu).

Whiplash wrote:
Augusto wrote:so, to make it fair, what would you say about having 128 rot images instead of 64.. that should give the posibility to adjust the car angle to track angle, dont you agree??

Nope, that would not solve the problem completely, but probably it would be a little better in some cases. Believe me, I already played many top-down racing games (2D and 3D) and 360 images will be the most common (if not more than that).

Any amount of images will not solve the problem "completely" though with small cars it could be done with a few hundred images.

Whiplash wrote:Situation now (64 images)
Perfect situation (360 images)
Perfection in Del's brain (4 images)

See, Del doesn't want to be confused. He need easily to know what is up-down-left-right. Any other direction just confuses his little brain.
This is your game Del:
huahuehhau

http://i.imgur.com/mzdLz.png Is that not easier?
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Whiplash

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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 5:37 pm

Del wrote:It would go in the direction it points. You can actually try a car like this to illustrate the difficult of finding the perfect rotation

Your logic sucks too much to make me do such a stupid test. It would be better for you to try some other game to make your brain see the truth.

Del wrote:It's not impossible to find the perfect rotation like that but there's one major difference: you actually notice if you're not going straight; it won't suddenly jump 1 pixel and to the grass.

Oh, your cars are jumping???
Remember, you never starts from the edge of the track (?); you always starts few pixels close to it. So 360 images will make you still be in those few pixels close to the edge without touching the grass. 64 images don't let you that. Even with many pixels far from the edge, on little longer straights you always have to make a correction. I can't believe you're so dump. :)
Why don't you just try some other game to make your brain see the truth?
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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 6:30 pm

Whiplash wrote:
Del wrote:It would go in the direction it points. You can actually try a car like this to illustrate the difficult of finding the perfect rotation

Your logic sucks too much to make me do such a stupid test. It would be better for you to try some other game to make your brain see the truth.
Oh trust me I have played racing games and other games both similar to dissimilar to TS.

Whiplash wrote:
Del wrote:It's not impossible to find the perfect rotation like that but there's one major difference: you actually notice if you're not going straight; it won't suddenly jump 1 pixel and to the grass.

Oh, your cars are jumping???

If the car is at a 1 degree angle (which would be pretty much unnoticeable to the human eye at the sort of size you might want a TS car to be) to a straight it will drift extremely slowly towards one edge of the straight. You will not see it moving constantly; it will have to jump a pixel every once in a while. If that happens when you're on the very last pixel of the track... Tough luck.
Whiplash wrote:Remember, you never starts from the edge of the track; you always starts few pixels close to it.

Really? On the left you're on the track, on the right you're not. Don't say that that doesn't happen; go watch any F1 race and you'll see several cases of being on the last pixel. And that's part of the game and you'd be stupid not to use that to your advantage (though I wouldn't put it beyond you).
Whiplash wrote:So 360 images will make you still be in those few pixels close to the edge without touching the grass.

Until you jump that crucial 1 pixel to the sand because of the unnoticeable drift.
Whiplash wrote:64 images don't let you that. Even with many pixels far from the edge, on little longer straights you always have to make a correction. I can't believe you're so dump. :)

On most tracks the current cars are fine. TSE-Cajares, K-Vallelunga... which other tracks can you name?
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Mike Nike

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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 6:32 pm



ty, whip, had a good laugh on that one :)
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shyguy1001

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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 7:15 pm

Just throwing someting else into the mix.. in SCARTS we often had a problem with wallstick, cos of the pat file of the car.. this was fixed by simply removing a pixel from the second half of the wall, so you can steer off of it.. its true that often you can hit just that last pixel which is the difference between going off track and not, and I think thats one of the tiny good things about turbosliders..
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Whiplash

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PostThu Mar 01, 2012 7:16 pm

Del wrote:Until you jump that crucial 1 pixel to the sand because of the unnoticeable drift.

If you're scared of touching the sand, you can aim in the spot which is 5-10 pixels close to the edge, and it will still look like a perfect driving line. Now you can't (you can only aim too far from it - on totally different side of the track), so in the middle of a straight you always feel the need to make a correction.

Del wrote:On most tracks the current cars are fine. TSE-Cajares, K-Vallelunga... which other tracks can you name?

It's far from "fine" on TSE-Cajares (try it with Spinner) and many, many others.
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Whiplash

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PostSat Jan 26, 2013 2:33 pm

O man, I just had some free time to make some tests about this shit.
I created the rot-image where 1 degree is equal to 1 image. So I got image that fallows the car from 0 to 63 degrees while it's spinning.
To see the result I suggest you to download the car and compare it with F1-Premium on the Wh_LittleBitch track.
Pick two players and choose some clean (without stripes) colors for them (like: pure yellow, or green)
-HERE is the car.
-HERE is the track.

Now you can see how smooth the car image would be. F1-Premium looks like a cartoon there while spinning.
I also suggest you to drive both cars to the dust spots and then rotate them from 0 to 63 (left-right) in the same time. The difference will be more visible. :wink:
And, just notice, this is just about the look. Improvement of handling would be something I'd like to test more.
Now I think that it's the thing that can improve TS more than any other and should be implemented before anything else.

By having 360 images, even Shyguy's SCARTS cars would look nice. :twisted:
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Pingu

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PostSat Jan 26, 2013 2:46 pm

The car acts super weird for me lol. The car is backwards and a line is moving or smt.
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Whiplash

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PostSat Jan 26, 2013 3:53 pm

Pingu wrote:The car acts super weird for me lol. The car is backwards and a line is moving or smt.

Yeah, you got it Columbo. I already said that only 0 to 63 rotation is possible. And the car is spinning whole circle still of cource, you amateur. :)
It's about tsting the spinning, not the driving. So, just compare spinning zone from 0 to 63 degrees with left-right keys. Don't drive it you moron. :D

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